All Hallows Eve is bigger than Christmas

[Miss Sis]

Christmas is the big one here and back home in NZ.

There was absolutely no Halloween when I was a kid, but we celebrate Guy Fawkes a few days later on the 5th November (actually I think only the UK and NZ observe Guy Fawkes, I know the Aussies don't).

Over the last few years there's been the odd kid going out and doing that trick or treat thingie but it's hardly widespread. Generally it's considered an American tradition so (like Thanksgiving) there is little reason for NZers to follow it.

Christmas is a laid back affair back home

Ah, my fellow Kiwi Smithy explains holidays NZ style.

When I was a child we did dress up for Halloween and the local kids would go trick or treating, but it was very low key. We always had fireworks for Guy Fawkes or Bonfire Night as the Brits call it. I don't remember the two events being so close together though! Halloween was a chance to dress up but Guy Fawkes was all firecrackers, sparklers and skyrockets and I used to love it. My brothers and I would mess about and sometimes join my friend's family for making a 'Guy' (a model of Guy Fawkes who tried to blow up parliament that you burn) and having the bonfire.

For those who have never experienced it, Christmas in Summer is great. Usually it's sunny and you can get outside and enjoy the weather. In NZ it's really the start of the summer holidays. I'm happy to have a holiday here in England to break the tedium of Winter. We don't have any public holidays in NZ from Easter until Labour Day which is the end of October. With Winter in the middle, it is one long, boring stretch to get through.

Quite a few people go out for a dinner with work mates for a 'Mid Winter Christmas' in NZ, which must sound strange to those who are used to Christmas being in Winter anyway, but it's an odd concept to us!

On a small side note, the whole man in a red suit delivering presents comes from the St Nicholas story. His Saint's day is 5 December and it is celebrated in Holland as a day to give each other gifts and remember acts of kindness towards each other. My family there don't really give presents on Christmas. It is a day to go to church and be together as a family. St Nick's day is just another thing that has been appropriated and added to the whole Christmas shebang, even though it is associated with a saint.

 

[Miss Brill]

Unfortunately, I'm also known to be The Ugliest Dude Here, so...

Awww, ugly is a state of mind.

 

[Diamondback]

fftopic: :

Awww, ugly is a state of mind.

Actually, I was attempting a bit of "self-deprecating humor"--it's a hard fact that I ain't never gonna be even Bogie-grade without major cosmetic surgery (and after what a plastic-surgeon did to my face at age 3, I'm thinking they're not getting a second chance...). On the other hand, I do have other redeeming qualities, so in theory it's just a way to weed out the overly superficial...lol

Besides, as I've said elsewhere, some of the (truly) ugliest people I've known were also some of the most physically attractive, because they were ugly inside--in their character, or should I say "lack thereof".

 

[Forgotten Man]

History of Halloween:

In the 5th century BC, in Celtic Ireland, summer officially ended on October 31. The holiday was called Samhain , the Celtic New year. On that day, the disembodied spirits of all those who had died throughout the preceding year would come back in search of living bodies to possess for the next year. It was believed to be their only hope for the afterlife. The Celts believed all laws of space and time were suspended during this time, allowing the spirit world to intermingle with the living. Naturally, the living did not want to be possessed, so on the night of October 31, the villagers would extinguish the fires in their homes, to make them cold and undesirable. They would then dress up in and parade around the neighborhood, being as destructive as possible in order to frighten away spirits looking for bodies to possess.

The custom of Halloween was brought to America in the 1840's by Irish immigrants fleeing their country's potato famine. At that time, the favorite pranks in New England included tipping over outhouses and unhinging fence gates. lol

Halloween was different in many regards then, then the Halloween we know of today. Even in the 1980’s I recall my mother warning me not to take apples from strangers at the risk of biting into razorblades!

My mother told me how it was in her past, the 1950’s were different indeed! She told me that her and her sisters and friends would dress up in cute costumes and go knocking on doors… the occupants would invite them in and share pie and hot drinks such as hot chocolate or apple cider. Then, they go to the next house and do much the same. Telling scary ghost stories was also part of the ritual of that holiday.

For me, Halloween today is way too commercial, and can be rather dangerous. I like to keep the house dark and listen to Art Bell on the radio and get a good ol’ fashioned spook from some of the ghost stories told by callers. I used to like dressing up but, I really don’t like the phoniness of the parties going on… I think hanging with some close friends and such would be better time spent for me.

Christmas is a pretty plastic holiday; Santa came from Coca Cola and isn’t the reason for the season. My self, I just like to be with the people I love and adore, sharing some simple gifts and spending time singing and enjoying each other’s company is what Christmas is to me... some don't "do" Christmas because of what it has become and for the commercial aspects of it... I say who says anyone has to subscribe to what the world or TV says it is... make it your own! I have my own beliefs towards Christ and I’ll leave it at that.

FM~

 

[John in Covina]

Christmas is a pretty plastic holiday; Santa came from Coca Cola and isn’t the reason for the season. My self, I just like to be with the people I love and adore, sharing some simple gifts and spending time singing and enjoying each other’s company is what Christmas is to me. I have my own beliefs towards Christ and I’ll leave it at that. FM~

**************
Santa Claus & Saint Nick/Nicolaus goes back way before coke and has a deeper meaning. The history of the candy cane is tied to one of them.

 

[Forgotten Man]

**************
Santa Claus & Saint Nick/Nicolaus goes back way before coke and has a deeper meaning. The history of the candy cane is tied to one of them.

Maybe but, by the 1930's, Santa SOLD OUT!lol

He’s now owned by the Coca Cola Company and any use without written permission of Coca Cola or any of their affiliates is prohibited.

Oh, also Lucky Strike has a hold on him too...

FM~

 

[Dominic]

Interesting info about Santa Claus on Wiki.

 

[Forgotten Man]

No matter what...

your beliefs or tastes are, the key is to have fun!

FM~

 

[Doh!]

Amen, FM!

 

[GeniusInTheLamp]

On Halloween, I get up in the morning, take the commute to work, do my 8 hours at the office, take the commute back home, and throw something from the freezer into the oven for dinner.

On Christmas, I get up in the morning, take the 3-hour drive to Wisconsin (both my sisters live there, and they rotate the holiday at their houses), listen to quality Christmas music on the way, meet the family, open presents, eat like a pig, maybe catch some sports (if I have time), and drive back home with a carload of gifts and leftovers.

Advantage, Christmas.

 

[dhermann1]

Yes, it is fun how this thread has kicked off an interesting and friendly discussion of some fascinating questions. I hope some people have learned something, I know I have. Just toss in more confusion, the name sake of Easter was Ishtar or Astarte, a version of the Mother Goddess. Easter is celebrated in way which suggest fertility and reproduction (bunnies? eggs?) In the Greek world this time of year was the signal for orgies and some heavy duty partying.
But now back to Halloween. I WILL have my jack o lantern out, and I WILL, as usual, try (unsuccessfully, as usual) to find something less unhealthy for the little dears. But I'll have my punkin. But I may try to use the remains of th pumpkin for pie. Anyone ever make a punkin pie from scratch? It's not hard.

 

[Edward]

Just toss in more confusion, the name sake of Easter was Ishtar or Astarte, a version of the Mother Goddess. Easter is celebrated in way which suggest fertility and reproduction (bunnies? eggs?)

The Easter Bunny comes from that, yes... The story as I recall was that the goddess found a bird that was dying, and she was able to save its life - but only by turning it into a rabbit. Thereafter, although a rabbit, it still maintained certain birdlike characteristics, most notably, laying eggs. Hence the Easter Bunny bringing eggs.... Another tradition we had in Ireland - don't know how widespread it is elsewhere? - was egg rolling. Hard boiled egg traditionally, take it out and roll it down a hill, typically until the shell cracked: yum, egg with added dirt (I'm sure no schools or youthgroups do that now down to health and safety!!). We were always taught that this symbolised the stone being rolled away from the risen Christ's tomb, though I don't know whether the practice goes back earlier and carried a different symbolism in the pre-Christian era.

It's easy to see how the Christian Easter festival mapped neatly onto that, what with the themes of new life and resurrection.

But now back to Halloween. I WILL have my jack o lantern out, and I WILL, as usual, try (unsuccessfully, as usual) to find something less unhealthy for the little dears. But I'll have my punkin. But I may try to use the remains of th pumpkin for pie. Anyone ever make a punkin pie from scratch? It's not hard.

I'll have a turnip Jack O'Lantern out..... if there's time to make it.... Halloween is basically Christmas in Rocky Horror world, so I'm well busy with two full on screenings to rehearse for and MC, and a couple of other events as well. Eep!

 

[PADDY]

Following on from my fellow Irishman...

I spend my Easters at my Aunt's in County Down. We'd go collecting the yellow petals off gorse bushes and boil them up to make a yellow dye and then boil the eggs in it to give them a yellow colour. We'd paint faces with the blood of cockroaches ( I think), anyway...

And then we'd take them to some big hills and roll them down as Edward mentioned above.

Also would dye them with tea and they would be a rich nut brown colour.

Halloween in Ulster meant turnip (not pumpkin) lanterns. Games of ducking the apple in a bowl of water or suspending it from a string on a door frame and trying to eat it with your arms behind your back!! Happy Days folks...

We also made toffee apples...YUM!! Those were the days...

 

[nyx]

It's my son's second Halloween, but since he was only a month old the first time, I'm considering it his first. I'm more excited about this than Christmas! He's going to be Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh, and he just started walking, so my dream is to have him toddle up to a door and treat or treat. Ancient traditions and history aside, I just think he'll be gosh darn adorable. I love to see the kids dressing up and having fun. I know others think it's commericial, but so are most holidays in the US, and I still wouldn't trade it for the world. Halloween has always been my favorite holiday. The candy was nice, but make believing I was someone else for a day was even better.

 

[Forgotten Man]

We'd go collecting the yellow petals off gorse bushes and boil them up to make a yellow dye and then boil the eggs in it to give them a yellow colour. We'd paint faces with the blood of cockroaches ( I think), anyway...

Paint faces with the blood of cockroaches?!? Oh my, sorry, not to sound rude but, that just sounds funny! Who bleeds cockroaches? I didn't know they had that much blood!lol Sounds more like a Halloween activity then Easter... painting things with the blood of a roach... think about it, it's creepy! lol

All in jest my good sir, carry on! Sorry for the interruption but, I just had to say something.

FM~

 

[Haversack]

I find it interesting that the US has proved fertile ground for just two of the eight Christian/Pagan/Seasonal holidays. Christmas/Yule/Winter Solstice for one. Halloween/Samhain/Autumnal Cross-Quarterday for the other. Why is that?

In other countries some of the other C/P/S holidays have continued to have signifigance and celebrations. St. John's Eve/Mid-Summer's Eve/Summer Solstice is a big deal in Central and Northern Europe. Bon fires everywhere. The further north you go, (say Tromso, in Norway), the wilder the celebration. Of course it barely gets dark there then. May Day/Beltain/Spring Cross Quarterday is also widely celebrated outside the US. May Day has largely been subsummed as International Labour Day but many places still set up the May Pole. Beltaine as itself is not forgotten in places such as Edinburgh. As for the other days, the Equinoxes and the other Cross-Quarterdays, (Candlemas/Imbolc and Lammastide/Lammas) these tend to have smaller, more localized observances. The church calendar often has special services for these.

Haversack.

 

[Edward]

Halloween in Ulster meant turnip (not pumpkin) lanterns. Games of ducking the apple in a bowl of water or suspending it from a string on a door frame and trying to eat it with your arms behind your back!! Happy Days folks...

Yes, I think in some ways Halloween remained much more a folk tradition in Ireland than the more commercialised beast it became in the US, and I think is starting to become this side of the Atlantic too. I don't know about the old country - not spent a Halloween there for nine years now, but I've seen year on year it becoming a bigger deal that way here in Blighty. Decorations and the likes in the stores.... I mean, stuff to buy for the home for decoration, like Christmas decorations.

As to the Jack O'Lantern, to be historically correct, it should be a turnip. The Jack O'Lantern originated in Ireland - as did the the pagan Samhain festival and thus our modern Halloween its very self - and locally grown turnips were used. When Irish immigrants took the Halloween tradition with them to the New World, turnips were not (or at least not readily) available, and pumpkins began to be used as a substitute. Of course, as it was originally in the US where Halloween became such a big commercial holiday, the image of the pumpkin is the one that has become mainstream, and so typically here in England (and even the last I saw of it in Ireland in some cases - right through my childhood and into adulthood, even, it was always a turnip you had - pumpkins were only seen on the television, in England. We were told back then even that "It's because they don't have turnips in England." Not strictly true, but they sure don't seem to ever have the big monsters we sometimes had!) it is the pumpkin that a Jack O'Lantern is often made from. Being a contrary oul begger, I prefer to stick to the old tradition, and make mine from a turnip. I'm sure a pumpkin must be a lot easier to carve out, mind! Naturally, I always eat the turnip - goes great with peas and mash, or even better if you can get hold of a haggis this far ahead of Burns night...

 

[Starius]

You know, that I think about it, I recall once seeing a variety of turnip in one of my heirloom seed catalogs that grew to the size of smaller pumpkins. I believe it was a 1800s variety and wasn't used for human consumption but it was grown to feed livestock. I'll have to see if I can track that variety down again... might make for a interesting modern halloween alternative.


As for commercial Halloween decorations, they've been around here in the US for a LONG time. Old halloween decorations are a growing area in the antique & collectable market. The oldest I've seen are from the 1920s and halloween decorations from this time are absolutely beautiful. I tend to come across more from the 1950s though.

 

[Smithy]

In other countries some of the other C/P/S holidays have continued to have signifigance and celebrations. St. John's Eve/Mid-Summer's Eve/Summer Solstice is a big deal in Central and Northern Europe. Bon fires everywhere. The further north you go, (say Tromso, in Norway), the wilder the celebration. Of course it barely gets dark there then.

Actually Haversack during Sankthansaften (the summer solstice party) in Norway, there's no darkness whatsoever within the northern counties inside the Arctic Circle as it is the height of the midnight sun. I've spent a few at my fiancée's father's cottage up a remote fjord in Nordland watching the bonfire and drinking aquavit and cognac. Really special

 

[Jovan]

fftopic: :
Actually, I was attempting a bit of "self-deprecating humor"--it's a hard fact that I ain't never gonna be even Bogie-grade without major cosmetic surgery (and after what a plastic-surgeon did to my face at age 3, I'm thinking they're not getting a second chance...). On the other hand, I do have other redeeming qualities, so in theory it's just a way to weed out the overly superficial...lol

Besides, as I've said elsewhere, some of the (truly) ugliest people I've known were also some of the most physically attractive, because they were ugly inside--in their character, or should I say "lack thereof".

No offence to the late Bogart, but there are plenty of men far more attractive than him. I've always been more partial to Jimmy Stewart as an actor and looker. Just my opinion of course.