Airport Security

[Blondie]

What never ceases to amaze me is if they go to so much trouble to ban knives then why the hell are knitting needles allowed ? I'm sure one could do some damage with those on a plane !

 

[Diamondback]

Just pray that not a single one of them, hijacker included, is actually stupid enough to fire a gun in a pressurised cabin....

Actually, MythBusters busted that one.

 

[Vintage Betty]

Mr. Qwkslvr, you are one silver-tongued lad. That's a very old photo, and I can only wish I still looked like that....and wore that dress size. lol

All I can say about this thread is that my mother was a travel agent for 25 years and I am SO GLAD she retired before 9/11. I think she'd need therapy to hear all this on a daily basis.

On the converse of this discussion, it's absolutely amazing what a traveller can accomplish with a smile in the face of absolute airport chaos.

Anyone have any very cool stories to share about good fortune shining on them while in airports?

Vintage Betty

 

[carter]

OK, I know that some items from this thread may be missing but here's what I've got:

A lighter, a roll of packing tape with attached cutter, knitting needles, a safety razor, a toothbrush, dental floss, any amount of liquid as long as the bottles are small enough, a video camera vouched for by the ticket agent. These all either made it thru in someone's luggage or are currently allowed by the TSA.

Since travellers can't carry guns, perhaps they should carry these items. We'll be almost as well armed as any evil-doers. Won't we...?

 

[Twitch]

Racial profiling for the sake of harassment is not the same thing as racial profiling for indentification and descriptive purposes. Any crime, once commited, has witness descriptions broadcast with it. Characteristics basically include race, sex, age, height, weight, complexion, clothing color or other distinguishing features.

When a BOLO (be on the look out) goes out from a pair of early 20s, white males that are wanted for questioning should black or hispanic males become indignant that they weren't included? Should heavyset women? How about 60 year old caucasians?

When I fit the visual profile of the typical serial killer earlier in life should I have been claiming discrimination of some sort?

We don't handicap our law enforcement agencies concerning any other venue of criminal description by disallowing pertinent visual characteristics to be broadcast.

Why should we disallow it when it comes to international terrorism threats in a public venue? Race, sex, age, height, weight, complexion, clothing color or other distinguishing features are used by law enforcement thousands of times per day all over the world why should they be considered prejudicial in American airports and nowhere else?

 

[Edward]

What never ceases to amaze me is if they go to so much trouble to ban knives then why the hell are knitting needles allowed ? I'm sure one could do some damage with those on a plane !

I have read that a knitting needle can be used to cause much more damage in a brawl than can a knife, the reason being that the former is so much thinner and can therefore slip right through the gap between ribs, causing significantly more damage much more easily.

Actually, MythBusters busted that one.

So what's the deal with it then? I was under the impression that a bullet puncturing a pressurised cabin would create a hole that would suck out all the air and/or anything else that would fit through it - not the case? (We don't get the Mythbusters show here in the UK). Have to admit I'd still be reluctant to see guns on a plane in any case - not in the hands of every Joe Schmo travelling (hell, it's bad enough some of them get served alcohol on a flight!). I know there was a case put for armed "air marshalls", though quite frankly the ramping up of headline-grabbing security like that only ever serves to make me less confident that they're doing anything effective, especially in the wake of the De Menzes execution.

Racial profiling for the sake of harassment is not the same thing as racial profiling for indentification and descriptive purposes. Any crime, once commited, has witness descriptions broadcast with it. Characteristics basically include race, sex, age, height, weight, complexion, clothing color or other distinguishing features.

...

Why should we disallow it when it comes to international terrorism threats in a public venue? Race, sex, age, height, weight, complexion, clothing color or other distinguishing features are used by law enforcement thousands of times per day all over the world why should they be considered prejudicial in American airports and nowhere else?

I have no objection to them narrowing the field when they are looking out for known suspects in a specific instance - of course it's crazy to search people who don't match that description at all. But to simply make a blnid decision that "terrorists are Middle Eastern, so we shall only search the Middle Easterns" will only result in making a whole class of people feel victimised - basically the message being put out would be "because of the colour of your skin and/or your religion, you are likely to be a terrorist." At best this alienates folks - at worst, you could well hand Al Quaeda a valuable recruitment tool. We're not talking about "an offence has been committed and two young Middle Eastern men are believe to be responsible" or even "we believe a group of young ME men are planning an attack" here, but "you are Middle Eastern and therefore potentially a terrorist, therefore we are gonig to single you out for search. It's a completely different situation.

It can also leave the way open for those who do not fit the profile - the white guy who decides to convert to a radicalised and perverted form of Islam which condones terrorism, for instance. Not to mention that while the organisation (though some would dispute that) known as al Quaeda is the primary threat at present, this does not rule out any and all others. The all too common assumption that only Middle Easterns / Muslims can be terrorists is in danger of leading to complacency with respect to other security risks.

ETA: I am not proposing that tis would be any more or less acceptable elsewhere. I'd object as equally if police stopped and searched someone on the street for the simple reason that the colour of their skin made them "likely to be a terrorist."

 

[warbird]

Racial profiling for the sake of harassment is not the same thing as racial profiling for indentification and descriptive purposes. Any crime, once commited, has witness descriptions broadcast with it. Characteristics basically include race, sex, age, height, weight, complexion, clothing color or other distinguishing features.

When a BOLO (be on the look out) goes out from a pair of early 20s, white males that are wanted for questioning should black or hispanic males become indignant that they weren't included? Should heavyset women? How about 60 year old caucasians?

When I fit the visual profile of the typical serial killer earlier in life should I have been claiming discrimination of some sort?

We don't handicap our law enforcement agencies concerning any other venue of criminal description by disallowing pertinent visual characteristics to be broadcast.

Why should we disallow it when it comes to international terrorism threats in a public venue? Race, sex, age, height, weight, complexion, clothing color or other distinguishing features are used by law enforcement thousands of times per day all over the world why should they be considered prejudicial in American airports and nowhere else?

I agree completely

 

[Vintage Betty]

Originally posted by Edward:

I have read that a knitting needle can be used to cause much more damage in a brawl than can a knife, the reason being that the former is so much thinner and can therefore slip right through the gap between ribs, causing significantly more damage much more easily.

As with anything else, it depends on who is holding or using the item.

I've been trained in weapons for 20 years (no guns). I've been taught to use a single knife, double knife, hand-to-hand combat, against one, two and three people. I've also been taught to use weapons against all three people while unable to stand or move and all three people circled me trying to attack.

I've also been taught a lot of other things in martial arts that I won't bore you with.

So, yes, Mythbusters might have busted the myth, but you wouldn't believe what my sensei can do with a knitting needle.

And as part of our class, he taught us how to use anything we were wearing as weapons, and how to bring items for self-defense puposes onto planes that were legal.

So, yes, the average traveller can't bring a bottle of water onto a plane. But he's not the person I'm worried about.

Vintage Betty

 

[carter]

Originally posted by Vintage Betty
Anyone have any very cool stories to share about good fortune shining on them while in airports?

I've been trained in weapons for 20 years (no guns). I've been taught to use a single knife, double knife, hand-to-hand combat, against one, two and three people. I've also been taught to use weapons against all three people while unable to stand or move and all three people circled me trying to attack.

And as part of our class, he taught us how to use anything we were wearing as weapons, and how to bring items for self-defense puposes onto planes that were legal.

VB, It appears to me that my good fortune would be to be on your flight the next time I go airborne.
You are dangerous!

 

[Vintage Betty]

lol

I'll never forget the look on my husband's face when I proudly told him my Sensei said I was now able to kill someone. He didn't think it was funny....

Seriously, I always wondered what I would do. All this training isn't any good if someone has a semi.

Vintage Betty

 

[Diamondback]

So what's the deal with it then? I was under the impression that a bullet puncturing a pressurised cabin would create a hole that would suck out all the air and/or anything else that would fit through it - not the case? (We don't get the Mythbusters show here in the UK). Have to admit I'd still be reluctant to see guns on a plane in any case - not in the hands of every Joe Schmo travelling (hell, it's bad enough some of them get served alcohol on a flight!). I know there was a case put for armed "air marshalls", though quite frankly the ramping up of headline-grabbing security like that only ever serves to make me less confident that they're doing anything effective, especially in the wake of the De Menzes execution.

Anything that fits, yes, but violent "explosive decompression", as it's called, that opens a big hole and sucks everyone nearby out like in Executive Decision? Adam and Jamie are a little sloppy at times on things like comparative firepower, but when you pump a plane up to full-pressure, possibly more, and fire a few into it with no kB!, that's pretty much "definite bust".

As for training, many of us licensed firearms carriers actually train much harder than many police officers: Asheville, NC (IIRC) for example, requires a single 100-round qualifier per year; I do a 200-round drill every couple months.

http://gadgetopia.com/post/2606

I have no objection to them narrowing the field when they are looking out for known suspects in a specific instance - of course it's crazy to search people who don't match that description at all. But to simply make a blnid decision that "terrorists are Middle Eastern, so we shall only search the Middle Easterns" will only result in making a whole class of people feel victimised - basically the message being put out would be "because of the colour of your skin and/or your religion, you are likely to be a terrorist." At best this alienates folks - at worst, you could well hand Al Quaeda a valuable recruitment tool. We're not talking about "an offence has been committed and two young Middle Eastern men are believe to be responsible" or even "we believe a group of young ME men are planning an attack" here, but "you are Middle Eastern and therefore potentially a terrorist, therefore we are gonig to single you out for search. It's a completely different situation.

You can also profile because different demographics tend to commit different crimes. For example, your average serial killer is a twenty- or thirty-something white male, usually a little overweight, very intelligent and somewhat socially lacking--if they were looking for one in my area, I'd certainly expect to be looked up and asked some questions.

So, yes, Mythbusters might have busted the myth, but you wouldn't believe what my sensei can do with a knitting needle.

And as part of our class, he taught us how to use anything we were wearing as weapons, and how to bring items for self-defense puposes onto planes that were legal.
...
Seriously, I always wondered what I would do. All this training isn't any good if someone has a semi.

Actually, Ms. Betty, I would. (My training always said "the weapon is the mind, everything else is just a tool.") One of my influences, as I noted elsewhere, advocates a hardwood cane as ideal for airport/aircraft self-defense under current regs...

Also, CQC training doesn't work if the hostile has means to strike from range (I subscribe to the Tueller rule of "if someone has initiated hostilities and is at range of 21' or less, they're too close...")

Just out of curiosity, might I ask which form you study? I'm always looking for new ideas for the self-defense "toolbag"...

 

[Vintage Betty]

Actually, Ms. Betty, I would. (My training always said "the weapon is the mind, everything else is just a tool.") One of my influences, as I noted elsewhere, advocates a hardwood cane as ideal for airport/aircraft self-defense under current regs...

Before 9/11 I had to travel with crutches and it shocked me that no one checked my crutches or removeable cast. I wonder what would happen today?

Also, CQC training doesn't work if the hostile has means to strike from range (I subscribe to the Tueller rule of "if someone has initiated hostilities and is at range of 21' or less, they're too close...")

Hehe...I like that! It always surprises me how much my reflexes take over when I don't think about it. More than once I've accidentally knocked a knife from someone's hand who was just passing it to me. And my training is great for repelling tickle attacks from my husband ...a very useful skill, let me tell you.

Just out of curiosity, might I ask which form you study? I'm always looking for new ideas for the self-defense "toolbag"...

For what I mentioned, I studied Escrima (also spelled Eskrima), the Inayan System. I studied under the son of the Founder. It was the hardest thing I've ever done. I loved it completely, but kept getting hurt and my injuries didn't heal. So I thought about it a while, and decided I wasn't getting any younger, and I was going to be hurt more as I studied, so I probably should drop out before I got hurt worse. Did I mention I loved it?? And the people were fantastic too....really wonderful....

Vintage Betty

 

[Twitch]

If we are "looking out for known suspects in a specific instance" then we SHOULD be continually looking at middle eastern men for the following reasons-

1983 - Bombing of US Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983
1983 - Bombing of Marine Barracks, Beirut, October 23, 1983
1983 - On November 7, the Armed Resistance Unit, a militant leftist group, bombs the U.S. Capitol in response to the U.S. invasion of Grenada.
1984 - Twenty-two people were killed (two of them American) and seventy were wounded when a van loaded with four hundred pounds of explosives exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy annex in Awkar, Lebanon. Islamic Jihad (code name of Hezbollah) claimed responsibility for the bombing in a call to the media.
1985 - TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver killed
1985 - Achille Lauro hijacking, wheel-chair bound American killed by Palestinian terrorists
1986 - Four Americans were killed and nine people, including five Americans, were injured when a bomb exploded aboard TWA Flight 840 as it traveled from Rome to Athens. The aircraft was able to land safely at Athens airport.
1986 - On April 6, a Berlin discotheque bombing killed a Turkish woman and two U.S. servicemen and injured 230 people, including more than 50 American servicemen.
1987 - A car bomb exploded outside the back gate of the U.S. Embassy in Rome and rockets were fired at the compound from across the street. One passerby was injured in the attacks.
1988 - Pan Am Flight 103, outbound from London for New York with 259 people aboard, was destroyed by a bomb on December 21, 1988 while over Lockerbie, Scotland. All aboard the aircraft were killed as were eleven persons on the ground.
1993 - First World Trade Center bombing, February 26: 6 Killed, 1,000 injured
1993 - Attack at CIA Headquarters in McLean, Virginia, January 25: 2 Killed, 3 injured
1995 - Killing of two US Diplomats in Pakistan, March 8, 1995
1996 - Khobar Towers bombing: 19 American servicemen killed
1998 - US embassy bombings: U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 214 killed (12 Americans); U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 10 killed
2000 - USS Cole attacked, 17 U.S. Navy sailors killed
2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks, 2,992 killed

All perpetrated by middle eastern men that fit the same profile.

 

[carebear]

For what it's worth, prior to the hysteria over the MLK and JFK assasinations and then the spate of (non-lethal) hijackings in the 60's it was perfectly legal to carry onboard US flights. There were no metal detectors whatsoever.

Nowadays I wouldn't make it necessarily "unrestricted" but if a person is considered safe to carry on the streets of 47 states in the US in other public areas filled with hundreds of people, I'm not sure why logic says an airplane is somehow different.

The myth of the "explosive decompression" owes much to people mistaking a movie (Goldfinger) with reality. (Haven't seen that before, have we? )

Aircraft aren't pressurized by sealing them airtight like a spaceship, they are pressurized by ramming in more air than is lost. Besides controlling the intake of air, in the rear is a dilating aperture that, at altitude, is typically open about a foot square. One, two or 300 half-inch diameter holes are therefore meaningless, pressure-wise.

It takes a massive structural failure, such as on that Hawaiian air flight some years back, to actually cause decompression to any meaningful degree. If you were sitting next to a window with a hole, you would have an annoying high-pitched whine and might get chilly, but that's about it, you aren't in vacuum after all.

As far as "some innocent might get hurt by a stray round". Think it through.

Remember, non-resistance in today's world apparently means everyone dies, not just the bad guys and the odd unfortunate. Resistance with inadequate or impromptu weapons against trained attackers means the good guys will suffer injury and/or death beyond what they should have, had they been allowed sufficient arms.

The attacker has the advantage of choosing the time and place and will, as failed test after failed test has shown, probably have whatever weapons they want smuggled onboard by suborned ground crew anyway.

If "Plan A" is the hijackers do whatever they want and we depend on their "mercy" and "Plan B" is our own Air Force shoots us down, killing all aboard, to prevent another 9/11...

Then I think I'd rather risk one or two misplaced bullets.

 

[Paisley]

Looks like Southwest Airlines is doing a different kind of profiling.

This, from the airline whose uniform used to be short skirts and go-go boots.

 

[carebear]

Looks like Southwest Airlines is doing a different kind of profiling.

This, from the airline whose uniform used to be short skirts and go-go boots.

If women can't dress like that on airplanes, the terrorists have already won. lol

Apparently the skirt was a bit short, they apparently had to use the "blur" when she sat down for her NBC interview with Matt Lauer.

 

[Paisley]

fftopic:

My TI in the Air Force suggested we wear pants when traveling. A wise woman!

 

[carebear]

fftopic:

My TI in the Air Force suggested we wear pants when traveling. A wise woman!

Well, according to MSNBC the blur was to cover her pants, not the lack thereof.

 

[Paisley]

fftopic:

I think you meant to write underpants.

Airport Security Theater, indeed!

 

[carebear]

fftopic:

I think you meant to write underpants.

Airport Security Theater, indeed!

Well, yeah, but that word makes me giggle like a schoolgirl. I can't even write titmouse without blushing.