Afghanistan Brown

[Renault]

"As for OD green, according to the majority of post Viet Nam - pre ACU veterans on another forum, the best uniform ever issued by the U.S. Army was the OG 107 jungle fatigues. Light, comfortable, and sharp as a tack when starched and pressed. Good for field and garrison, but only in temperate to tropical climates. Now THAT would be a specifically American uniform."

Once again,,,,, Thank you very much!!!!!!!!!!

Renault

 

[Widebrim]

^^Yeah, they were sharp-looking when starched, but as noted, would not work for colder climes. In addition, they would stick out like heck in a desert environment. I also agree with Bagger that (at least) the Army, Air Force, and Marine Corps (along with Seabees and Seals) should have the same patterned cammies; the Navy in general, and the Coast Guard are in the own category...

 

[AtomicEraTom]

When I think good military uniforms, I think OD Green. Woodland Camo, or Tigerstripe. I don't know what all this digicam crap and such that they've come out with is all about. It sure doesn't seem to camouflage them any better, from what I've seen.

 

[MPicciotto]

It sure doesn't seem to camouflage them any better, from what I've seen.

That's because you can't see them!

Sorry couldn't resist. You gave me such an opening there.

Matt

 

[Edward]

When I think good military uniforms, I think OD Green. Woodland Camo, or Tigerstripe. I don't know what all this digicam crap and such that they've come out with is all about. It sure doesn't seem to camouflage them any better, from what I've seen.

I don't much keep up with modern military technologies, but I gathered the digital patterns were designed to frustrate electronic surveillance imaging equipment rather than the human eye. [huh]

 

[AtomicEraTom]

I completely had that coming lol

That's because you can't see them!

Sorry couldn't resist. You gave me such an opening there.

Matt

I am no expert. The digicam just seems like a gimmick to me.

I don't much keep up with modern military technologies, but I gathered the digital patterns were designed to frustrate electronic surveillance imaging equipment rather than the human eye. [huh]

 

[Widebrim]

I don't much keep up with modern military technologies, but I gathered the digital patterns were designed to frustrate electronic surveillance imaging equipment rather than the human eye. [huh]

To a certain extent, Edward, that is true.

 

[SGT Rocket]

This is kind of interesting:
Several camouflage patterns were evaluated by the U.S. Army in 2009. Six such patterns are shown above, where members of the camouflage assessment team wearing the different camo patterns they evaluated. From left: AOR II, UCP, MultiCam, Desert Brush, UCP-Delta, and Mirage. The photo was taken in Khost province, close to the Pakistan border, in late October 2009. Photo: U.S. Army PEO Soldier.

I got the picture from here: http://defense-update.com/features/2010/february/new_multicam_uniform_19022010.html

It says the U.S. just chose the Multi-Cam for Afghanistan. I heard somewhere else that the army has rejected the multi-cam, so, who knows.

 

[Baggers]

The original competition held in 2004 essentially pitted the Army's Natick Laboratory designed UCP pattern against Crye Precision's privately designed Multicam, and -- surprise, surprise -- UCP was picked for the new Army Combat Uniform. While UCP worked well enough in Iraq, troops in Afghanistan found it lacking because patrols were going from arid zones to "green" zones and back daily and UCP didn't work in vegetation even after the base color was tweaked slightly. The Army revisited the subject in 2009 and Multicam was chosen as the best solution and was authorized as "AFPAT," if I recall. Units deploying to Afghanistan are now being issued with it exclusively before shipping out. An indicator of UCP's ineffectiveness was that special operations people never adopted it and either procured Multicam through their own supply channels or continued using the old BDU and DCU patterns. Supposedly, Multicam would have cost more to procure because of the royalty fees Crye would have demanded, but if Big Army had gone with MC in the beginning I wonder how much money would have been saved in the long run?

 

[Story]

Living Room Digital

 

[Corto]

I also read that the main reason UCP was adopted (and digital patterns dating from the introduction of CADPAT) was because it frustrated anyone viewing it through night vision goggles. Does anyone know how Multicam stacks up against digital camouflage when viewed through military grade optical devices (if the appropriate detergent is used)?

Interestingly enough, the British recently commissioned Crye to make a Multicam pattern with DPM elements in it. You can see current photos of British military personnel wearing it in Afghanistan.

The website "Soldier Systems" has been an advocate of Multicam from the beginning and regularly runs stories about its struggle for procurement by the US military.

 

[Baggers]

Genuine Multicam fabrics are IRR treated to lower the signature, but the pattern itself is designed more to fool the human eyeball, I think. And given the high resolution of current night vision equipment, any advantage provided by a pixellated pattern like UCP, MARPAT, and CADPAT is probably moot nowadays. And with modern thermal imaging there's probably no advantage at all.

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

In two decades or so, Italian Army uniforms (the "BDU" version) went from OD fatigues to woodland camo (with a peculiar italian version for "arid climates" worn in Somalia and Iraq) and finally to their own "digital" enhanced camo ("vegetata") in two versions (european and desertic).

In the Fifties or so, it was a more "israeli" (and logical) solution, with khaki shirts and pants for everyone (at least in summer), plus camo fatigues for those guys, or those situations, that really need them.
More logical, more economic, and also sharper looking.

But the average italian soldier nowadays is all about looking "super dooper special force", and has serious issues wearing what in italian we call simply "la drop", i.e. the dress uniform (coat and tie); so I guess nobody would dare to put in question their beloved camo fatigues...

 

[Atticus Finch]

Amazing. While I was vaguely familiar with the basic military camouflage patterns, until I read through this thread, I didn't realize how many patterns there have been since WWII. I guess I thought there was only OG-107, EDRL, Woodland, tri-color dessert, and the new digital patterns, printed in various colors.

Here are some guys who were, themselves, pretty effective ground pounders in spite of their lack of high tech uniforms. This trio was captured at Gettysburg and they depict the typical dress of mid-war Confederates. Their uniforms were home-spun and may have been grey, but were more likely “butternut”… a brownish color that resulted when cloth was boiled with walnut husks. Ironically, the various shades of butternut and grey made a pattern that was effectively camouflage when worn in eastern woodland forests and fields.

Their head gear was usually some sort civilian felt hat that had been so well worn that it had lost its shape and become “slouch”. Again, the shape of this kind of hat provided "camouflage" in that it broke the shape of its owner's head in the same way as does a modern "boonie hat".

AF

 

[SGT Rocket]

^^ Though captured, they still look proud-- and stylin!

 

[Baggers]

I find it interesting that after all the various personal equipment issues in olive green shades since World War 2, new stuff -- webbing, pouches, small packs, etc. -- can now be found in a color called Coyote that bears a remarkable resemblance to the OD No. 3 khaki-ish shade used from the 1920s or 30s until the end of the "brown shoe army" era in the 1950s. I placed a modern Eagle 3 day pack next to a reproduction 1936 musette bag from At The Front and the colors almost matched. Another current color fave is Flat Dark Earth, a throwback to WW2 era olive drab that finds itself being used for everything from polymer flashlight bodies to FN's new SCAR 5.56 and 7.62 mm rifle. Both colors work extremely well with Multicam. Obviously, what's old is new again.

 

[Baggers]

And in the latest salvo in the camouflage war we have Army, Marine Corps clashing over cammies. The money quote:

"Army officials have said they want soldiers to wear the best possible camouflage — even if that is the MARPAT. But Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent says don’t count on it.

The Corps owns the rights to MARPAT and wants to retain it for its own use, Kent said late last year. Marine officials said they have no beef with anyone researching and testing MARPAT, but they want Marines distinguished from other service members on the battlefield.

“The main concern for the Marine Corps when it comes to other services testing our patterns is that they don’t exactly mimic them,” said Kent, who is scheduled to retire June 9. “The MARPAT design is proprietary, and it’s important those designs are reserved for Marines. We just need to make sure each of our designs is unique to each service.”​

The US is how many trillions in debt and we're still spending money to satisfy territorial nonsense like this instead of DOD simply picking the best camouflage pattern and issuing it to ALL branches? Not to mention the lives risked by using less effective uniforms in order to cater to this service identity nonsense.

 

[DesertDan]

Amen Baggers, this is totally asinine.
MARPAT, if it is the most effective pattern, should be utilized by all forces and only when camo is actually needed. The idea of a branch of the militry having a proprietary/ tradenmarked camo pattern or color is outrageous.

The rest should be the regular daily dress uniforms and/or solid color BDUs for garrison duties. To clarify, if you work in an office one wears the daily dress uniform (which should be branch specific). If one works in the motorpool, flightline, weapons depot, etc one wears solid color BDUs.

Time to grow up boys and girls.

 

[Italian-wiseguy]

As for what I've read, no single camo scheme can possibly perform equally well in every environment;
so, I second DesertDan's idea: a solid color, reasonably sober BDU (khaki, olive green, you name it) is good enough for a lot of things, while camos should be mission-specific and issued to those who really need them.
I guess it would be even more economic.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

Amazing. While I was vaguely familiar with the basic military camouflage patterns, until I read through this thread, I didn't realize how many patterns there have been since WWII. I guess I thought there was only OG-107, EDRL, Woodland, tri-color dessert, and the new digital patterns, printed in various colors.

Here are some guys who were, themselves, pretty effective ground pounders in spite of their lack of high tech uniforms. This trio was captured at Gettysburg and they depict the typical dress of mid-war Confederates. Their uniforms were home-spun and may have been grey, but were more likely “butternut”… a brownish color that resulted when cloth was boiled with walnut husks. Ironically, the various shades of butternut and grey made a pattern that was effectively camouflage when worn in eastern woodland forests and fields.

Their head gear was usually some sort civilian felt hat that had been so well worn that it had lost its shape and become “slouch”. Again, the shape of this kind of hat provided "camouflage" in that it broke the shape of its owner's head in the same way as does a modern "boonie hat".

AF

They look like they might be brothers. There is a certain family resemblance with the high cheekbones.