Aeromarine update

[Rudie]

It's because of the Peter Pan collar.

 

[ButteMT61]

It's because of the Peter Pan collar.

lol

 

[Plumbline]

is it a Peter Pan collar ......

It's because of the Peter Pan collar.

In fact ... wasn't it The Major who first coined the term with regard to a leather jacket ???????????

 

[Sloan1874]

Nope it was me. And just not to lose sight of the original, accurate, observation, it was in relation to the AL Simmons.

 

[Plumbline]

That's right ..... I stand corrected ....... although it was an incorrect description for a "cutaway" collar or what Rin Tanaka describes as a "small round collar" as per the original Simmons Bilt which was subtly different to the LSCo Menlo Cossack on which the Aeromarine is based.

They are sort of unique to the 1910's - 20's .... with the exception of a few e.g. JC Penney deerskin sports jacket of the 1930's ( p30 Rin Tanaka) thereafter the "small round collar" typically became a woollen rib design which was much easier to fabricate ( as did the waist and the cuff) ... which may perhaps have led to the design of the original hockey / baseball jackets.

I'm not a big fan of round collars .... but I can appreciate the work which goes into them .... and well done to all for attempting them.

 

[majormajor]

It's because of the Peter Pan collar.

Rudie - is there a drug available only in Berlin that causes folks to fixate on Peter Pan collars? It's all you seem to talk about these days.....

although it was an incorrect description for a "cutaway" collar or what Rin Tanaka describes as a "small round collar" as per the original Simmons Bilt which was subtly different to the LSCo Menlo Cossack on which the Aeromarine is based.

Let's put this to bed, once and for all. Here is a pic of a Simmons Bilt.

I don't give a flying **** what Tanaka describes it as - it IS a shawl collar - JUST like the one on the Aeromarine - and NOTHING like the joke collar on the AlexCo "Simmons Bilt" jacket.

No amount of smoke and mirrors is gonna change that......:eusa_doh::eusa_doh:

 

[Fanch]

Major, I was initially bowled over by the design of your Aeromarine, and now even more so with what I have discovered regarding the difficult to construct shawl collar, with which I had no knowledge whatsoever until the shawl vs. Peter Pan hullabaloo occurred on the FL. The only reservation that I have is a body length that might be a bit short for me. So, do you know offhand what the back measurement is on your Aeromarine? I have the perception that the Aeromarine is designed to be worn at or maybe even slightly above the belt line and am unsure whether such a look would work with my skinny 6'1" frame. :noidea:

 

[Ishmael]

Let's not put it to bed just yet Tinkerbell.









http://hhgvintage.blog75.fc2.com/blog-entry-2485.html

More pics here (of what appears to be a slightly different collar?)

http://www.vintage-mushroom.net/zoomgoods/1363509074964/

 

[majormajor]

Hi Fanch

As you know, I like 'em tight, so I deliberately sized down with my Aeromarine. My actual chest measurement is 43", but I went for a 40" in the Aeromarine. I do a similar thing with A2s - but that is just me - I know alot of folks would think my jackets too small, and would prefer something bigger.

The actual measurements of my jacket are 23" pit-to-pit, and 24" length (from bottom of collar to bottom of the jacket). My height is 5ft 9/10".

Now I reckon the Aeromarine, as a flight jacket, should fit you pretty much the same as an A2 would fit you. So whatever measurements you are happy with on an A2 - then simply apply them to the Aeromarine.

Yours could well be a looser, longer fit than mine - and that is cool. We all have our "sweet spot" re jacket fit.

That last jacket you got was a perfect fit for you. Think of something just a little shorter - just over your belt, if you will - and that is where the Aermarine (IMHO) should be

 

[majormajor]

Let's not put it to bed just yet Tinkerbell.










http://hhgvintage.blog75.fc2.com/blog-entry-2485.html

More pics here (of what appears to be a slightly different collar?)

http://www.vintage-mushroom.net/zoomgoods/1363509074964/

Yeah, that's a real rounded collar isn't it, Ishmael? So just what exactly is your point? That AlexCo got it even MORE wrong??
:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[Fanch]

Thanks for the info Major. My Teamster has a 28.5" back and was thinking maybe in terms of a size 42 Aeromarine with a 26" back, which would hit slightly below my belt line. Below is a pic of a brown cow/steer HWM with a 26" back that I just sold due to what I perceived to be short sleeves. Maybe an Aeromarine with a 25" to 25.5 " back might work better. I dunno? :noidea:

 

[Sloan1874]

Well, the Simmons Bilt is a simple cut-away collar and the second's clearly a shawl collar, so that seems to settle that one. We could go around the houses a few more times on this subject if everyone wants to, but I'm pretty certain we'll just end up at the Peter Pan Collar cul de sac. But on a more positive note, those are both really nice jackets Ishmael's posted. I especially like the cream leather, which makes me think that a well-fitted Aeromarine in the same colour could be quite something a bit special...

 

[Plumbline]

Let's put this to bed, once and for all. Here is a pic of a Simmons Bilt.

I forgot Simmons Bilt only produced one jacket in almost 30 years of production ...... post the pic of the jacket the Alexanders "Simmons Bilt" was based on ........ that might help, I'll give you a clue ( I asked ... you clearly just assumed)

Rin Tanaka - Motorcycle Jackets a Century of Leather design .... the opposite page to the Menlo Cossack page ( ironically) , black horsehide no name small round cut-away collar jacket - no maker mark

I've yet to see mention of Peter Pan collars anywhere but here

 

[majormajor]

I forgot Simmons Bilt only produced one jacket in almost 30 years of production ...... post the pic of the jacket the Alexanders "Simmons Bilt" was based on ........ that might help, I'll give you a clue ( I asked ... you clearly just assumed)

Rin Tanaka - Motorcycle Jackets a Century of Leather design .... the opposite page to the Menlo Cossack page ( ironically) , black horsehide no name small round cut-away collar jacket - no maker mark

I've yet to see mention of Peter Pan collars anywhere but here

Thanks for the info, PL. I don't have the book. Can you scan the pic and put it here?

 

[Dr H]

Copies available:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motorcycle-Jackets-Century-Leather-Design/dp/0764325191
Around £50

 

[Ishmael]

I don't give a flying **** what Tanaka describes it as

Jump to a conclusion without all the evidence, without even a hearing, expect everyone to jump in line behind and then be hella rude if they don't.
This all has a very familiar ring to it.........

 

[majormajor]

Jump to a conclusion without all the evidence, without even a hearing, expect everyone to jump in line behind and then be hella rude if they don't.
This all has a very familiar ring to it.........

Where would we be without you, Ishmael, to save the world from outrageous fortune? What a hero!We are not worthy!![angel]:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[cordwangler]

Where would we be without you, Ishmael, to save the world from outrageous fortune? What a hero!We are not worthy!![angel]:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

Hyperbole? Non-answers? Goading response? Sounding a bit like the recently and not-so-dearly departed member with some undefinable grudge, against whom we all took exception.

All this is / isn't playground stuff is getting so old it's speaking an ancient language.

My bad for venturing back to Outerwear. Good luck, everyone!

 

[Dr H]

The collar question is just one of semantics in my book - I'm not concerned what it's termed, the collar of my LVC Menlo Cossack is executed as precisely as shown in the vintage image and that's all I need to know.

I'm more intrigued by the button spacing (even sadder) which is definitely irregular, with several examples shown with a longer space between the top two buttons.
Presumably this accommodates a folded 'lapel' when the jacket is partially opened (i.e. fastened at the second button)?

This is one aspect that LVC hasn't replicated, nor others for that matter. Given their ability to produce an uncanny copy of the hide, buttons and pattern, I just wonder if this is something that modern tastes simply view as 'wrong'/odd, hence the regular spacing of the buttons?

Any thoughts? I've not seen this arrangement before and I wonder when the layout changed to the conventional spacing. Military A-1 spec (1927) was certainly for regular spacing and buttoned civilian flying jackets seen in e.g. the Spalding catalogue also have 5 or 6 buttons to the torso, regularly spaced (plus two more closely placed buttons to the waistband).

 

[Sloan1874]

That caught my eye as well. I can imagine that LVC foresaw people being driven up the wall by endless 'Looks as you lost a button there, mate' comments they'd receive.