Aero Leather Clothing trial update

[Carlos840]

We want more and we want it now!

 

[pawineguy]

Note the difference...

...and let me know because I can't.

Which models are these Monitor?

 

[Monitor]

Which models are these Monitor?

Earlier Aero CR on the left, AL CR on the right. I believe it was after AL came up with "their" CR, that Aero switched to bi-swing back as a standard, because before they were offering both shoulder gusseted and full action back versions.

I know it may look like your standard, say, Brooks CR, but believe me, no other CR, vintage or otherwise, has back exactly like that - except AL CR. Aero put a lot of work into every of their designs.

 

[Edward]

Can of worms, but the first thing that entered my mind when you wrote this, after I'd wrote my comment was how we'd said the same thing about Kelso knocking off the Aeromarine. But the thing about Kelso, is as a company, they at least have their own thing going on, as a company and identity, and aren't located so close to Aero. AL just seemed to try to cut in line over the achievements and presence of an entire company, not just one jacket.

Kelso produced a similar jacket to an Aero model... indeed, a style popularised by Himel first... no harm, no foul there. Dubbing it the "Aeronaut", though, is a potential problem. Their denials are, imo, disingenuous; in this business, Aero is so strongly associated with the Aero company that I believe there could be a very strong case for trade mark infringement should Ken choose to pursue.

Edward, Does Aero not have a "civil" claim now against AL? My next one will be another Aero. I love my Bootlegger and always have why not another?

We'll see how it all comes out in the wash. It is possible Ken could choose to pursue a case for infringement of intellectual property in the patterns (while historical designs are not protected, the patterns are). Standard of proof at civil law is the balance of probabilities, so that's much easier than proving theft. However, there are all sorts of considerations as to whether it is worth the hassle. AL don't exactly seem to have eet the world alight; I'd be surprised if they've taken much business from Aero. If they're not a significant competitor, it might not be worth the hassle. If they're not hugely successful for whatever reason, it could be a mkstake to sue a comlany who can't afford to pay your costs. Bringing a legal action in the UK is a very expensive business.

Everybody's next moves will doubtless become apparent once the sentencing is done and the criminal case officially concluded.

I'll be interested in hearing Edward's take on this. Certain aspects of the case may have been dropped in consideration of expediancy, but we don't know at this point. Certainly, a number of people have profited from the design theft, so we'll have to wait and see. While reading the narrative, I noted LC's surprise that they hadn't gotten anything in writing from SA: it didn't surprise me.

 

[I would go out tonight]

Those two pictures seem conclusive.
I wonder about the staff that went from Aero to AL. Hopefully, if they were unaware of the deception, they will come out of this with a job. Perhaps there was a Jim Jones type of charisma. I also wonder how the pitch to Sandy Alexander went? I think, for now, I will continue not to purchase anything from Schuh .
I bought an AL Spiegel from the sale page, very early on. I dealt with Amanda and it was the same customer service as I had received at Aero. The jacket was very cheap but, for whatever reason, did not feel special. Perhaps, because it was cheap I thought it could not be as good as an Aero. I sold it on as I was not happy with it. It had cheap zips that were not in the same league as RiRi. (That is meant to be a humorous call back to another thread)

I think with any artistic endeavour there is an undefinable quality that some artists or artisans have that others do not. It is something that cannot be taught but is channelled from another dimension. Ken's designs have it whereas the AL simulacra do not. Obviously that is a subjective statement but it is what sets Aero apart from competitors.

 

[jlanderson]

There is a second shoe to drop on the patterns, not to give anything away at this point...

I hate you, Sloan. You're like a strip tease artist!

 

[Fanch]

Better said than I could ever have done but expresses my sentiments precisely.

 

[Superfluous]

Based on what I have read so far, it appears that Aero has a myriad of legitimate and likely meritorious claims against WL and AL. By way of example, WL plainly converted (legal ease for stole) Aero's personal property (jackets, jeans, patches, jacket patterns, etc.), misappropriated Aero's trade secrets (jacket patterns and likely other confidential information that he learned as Aero's managing director), breached his fiduciary duties owed to Aero as its managing director, embezzled from Aero, wasted company assets (corporate waste), etc. I suspect that WL also infringed upon Aero's intellectual property rights.

AL's potential liability is slightly different. AL did not owe any fiduciary duties to Aero. Moreover, based on Sloan's chronology to date, it does not appear that AL directly participated in the theft of Aero's property (more may be revealed on this front). On the other hand, AL is likely vicariously liable for any wrongdoing engaged in by WL while acting as an employee, agent or representative of AL and/or in conspiracy with AL. I cannot tell from Sloan's account whether there is evidence that WL was acting in concert with AL before WL left Aero and joined AL -- while I personally suspect that WL and AL were acting in concert beforehand, proving it is a different story. Giving AL the benefit of the doubt and assuming that AL knew nothing of WL's wrongdoing before WL joined AL, AL still has civil exposure. For example, AL plainly knew, or at the very least should have known, that the numerous patterns that WL had with him when he joined AL came from Aero (where else could they have come from?). Even if AL didn't ask and didn't know, AL clearly benefited from the stolen/misappropriated patterns. Therefore, AL may be jointly liable (with WL) for misappropriation of Aero's trade secrets (and any associated intellectual property infringement), even though AL did not participate in the initial theft of the patterns. There may also be other civil claims available based on notions of unfair competition. Of course, if AL was conspiring with WL while WL was still at Aero, AL could have considerably greater civil liability, including for the conversion of Aero's patterns.

The civil claims against WL for conversion (theft), breach of fiduciary duty, and misappropriation of trade secrets appear to be no brainers. In fact, if the governing law parallels US law on the issue, WL's criminal conviction might constitute liable per se, such that Aero would not have to re-prove the claims for which WL has already been criminally convicted (because the burden of proof for a criminal conviction is higher than for civil liability). The misappropriate of trade secrets claim against AL also appears relatively strong (again, AL had to know that the patterns brought by WL to AL belonged to Aero).

 

[wdw]

Isn't AL just a front for WL? If it wasn't for WL there would be no AL.

From tonight's evidence, it seems AS grassed on KC to WL, thus betraying the trust of being appointed Company Secretary. Nice.

And this £50k that was flogged on eBay, that must take the tally to £250k, plus presumably anything related to the strange IH payment arrangement that we haven't had fully explained. This is like a money jigsaw and we haven't got all the pieces yet.

 

[ProteinNerd]

Clearly engaging a new employee in copy patterns is wrong but realistically how does this differ than say purchasing a jacket and disassembling it to create a pattern from it? A lot of the repo manufacturers do this a on regular basis....

 

[Sloan1874]

Nope, the £52K is part of the £194K. Aero hold copyright on their patterns - Ken's patterns were his own creations inspired by vintage, not direct copies of jackets.

 

[Superfluous]

Isn't AL just a front for WL? If it wasn't for WL there would be no AL.

I thought AL existed before WL joined the company. If not, the analysis of AL's civil liability may be slightly different because WL's theft of Aero's patterns/trade secrets did not merely bolster AL; rather, it created AL.

It would be interesting to see when AL was formed, and when WL acquired his interest.

 

[wdw]

I was under the impression that AL was simply a vehicle created by WL, with the backing of SA, when he engineered the split from Aero. I'm not aware that AL existed beforehand, or we'd surely have been talking about them on this forum before the Aero debacle of September 2012.

 

[Superfluous]

Clearly engaging a new employee in copy patterns is wrong but realistically how does this differ than say purchasing a jacket and disassembling it to create a pattern from it? A lot of the repo manufacturers do this a on regular basis....

Reverse engineering is indeed a common practice. That said, it is not permissible if it infringes upon the originator's property/IP rights. Stealing a company's existing patterns is something entirely different and, IMHO, considerably more egregious. Tasking a company employee with the six months of work necessary to replicate the patterns -- all paid for by the victim of the subsequent theft -- is, IMHO, even more egregious.

 

[Monitor]

“They’ve done their homework” - you can't say the man didn't leave in style! lol

Ken's patterns were his own creations inspired by vintage, not direct copies of jackets.

I'm happy when I'm right.

 

[Superfluous]

Aero hold copyright on their patterns - Ken's patterns were his own creations inspired by vintage, not direct copies of jackets.

Add copyright infringement to my prior list of potential civil claims.

 

[wdw]

Actually, thinking back to the creation of AL, didn't it come about solely with the mass exodus of Aero staff once the game was up. And if I'm not mistaken one of the reasons given for this mass exodus was along the lines that the staff didn't want to work for KC for whatever reason.

 

[Bunyip]

One wonders what might have happened had WL not been tipped off....

 

[tropicalbob]

Lauder's lowness seems to have known no bounds. Imagine that your own son has to see you being rightfully threatened with arrest, pleads for a break for you, and then you capitalize on this shame by running home and freezing your Paypal account. Good Lord.

 

[Sloan1874]

I think AL was so long in gestation, and was probably a plan B set up for if Ken said no to SA's offer, that it's very hard to say for sure 'this is where AL was established'.