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Aero highwayman and Simmons bilt roadster

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Edward

Bartender
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25,082
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London, UK
I've had jackets that were designed to age at an accelerated rate and it can be quite unnerving when it starts to wear through after a couple of days. Not keen myself.

Nor me. The levle of wear on the Dustbowl is just nice (I'd dye it back to black if it ever got ott), but the likes of the blue-black goat Levis supplied for Aero to use making the original version of the Speedster back when, or the accelrated-wear teacore stuff DD has been using wouldn't be my choice. Great that they're out there for the folks who do want that, of course. All comes down to what you want: I want my jackets to look like I'm wearing a jacket made in 1948 in 1953, say, whereas there are guys who are into "vintage jackets" (as distinct from as pat of an overall vintage look), and they want something that will patina fast and extensively, because they're looking at seventy year old jackets that for whatever reason aren't something they can acquire and wear, and they want their jacket to look just like that seventy year old jacket. Horses for courses.

I think Aero has made no official statement whether they settle with the convinction of WL or also want to sue SB at civil court. Maybe it is telling they haven't done it yet? Also, with design elements so commonly used in the repro scene and the ease with which a pattern can be tweaked minimally to not to be identical again (e.g. SB added 1" to the body of the Roadster and moved up the armholes a signifacant bit), it is probably a hard matter to claim copyright for the styles currently offered by both companies.

Aero haven't made any official comment on this; they may or may not have decided it's not worth it. You can't read anything into that with regards to the merit of the case, however.

The matter was raised in the criminal case and the court heard that Will had stolen patterns from Aero as well as having them copied. However, as copyright infringement in the way Will did it is a matter of civil law in the UK, to enforce their copyright, Aero would have had to have taken their case to civil court themselves. The UK is far and away the most expensive place in Europe to launch a court case, so it's not something to do lightly. As a general rule, the design of a jacket is not protected - clothes, in the view of the law, are merely utilitarian, and so lack the creativity to protect the look of something in copyright. This means that one jacket maker is perfectly within the law to buy an example of a 'new' design from another, reverse engineer it, and copy it stitch for stitch. As long as they don't infringe TM by passing it off as the original or giving it the same name in infringement of trademark (say, copying a Highwayman and then calling it the Highwayman - a name which Aero own as a trademark in the UK) they can't be touched. Had Will / AL / SB been smart, that's what they would have done. For whatever reason, Will instead chose to illictly acquire and copy Aero's patterns, on which the first of the AL branded range were based.

What copyright law does protect is the patterns - the rationale being that considerable time and effort have gone into creating these designs and graded patterns, and that the creator of those should be entitled to protect them from just being liften and copied by others. The standard for infringement of copyright law in the UK (including the Scottish jurisdiction) is that "a substantial part" is copied - so minor tweaks, here and there, won't be enough to distinguish it sufficiently; much the same as Franz Murnau, under German law, was sued into the ground over Nosferatu (Bram Stoker's widow refused to give him permission to make a film of Dracula, so Murnau thought he could go ahead and do it anyway, avoiding copyright problems, just by changing the names of the characters. He was wrong, and Mrs Stoker sued him into the ground.). I recall also that there was mention during the criminal case that Aero had had an expert analysis done of AL (as then were) jackets based on the Aero Highwayman patterns, which showed them to be identical. (Useful summary of UK law from government information here: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa..._data/file/399646/Copyright_Notice_4-2015.pdf )

This all being the case, it looks like Aero would have had a fairly strong case, based on the facts as were made public during the criminal trial, so why no court action? Well, of course, as a matter of civil law it remains up to Aero to decide whether or not they wish to bring a case. As I have already mentioned, bringing a legal action in the UK can be cripplingly expensive; if there is doubt as to whether your opponent can afford to pay off your costs (which can run into the hundreds of thousands in protracted action), it can be risky. Nobody wants to have the pyrric victory of winning a case only to discover the loser can't pay it all back upfront, and the claimant therefore being in the position of being financially stuffed by that. This may or may not be part of Aero's thinking. It's also true that bringing a legal action is an immense strain on anyone - Aero have already been through that with the criminal case and may consider it just not worth the hassle. Further, a market analysis will usually come into these sorts of decisions. If Aero find that AL/SB have not dented the Aero market, then it is plausble they may decide that it's just not worth the expense and hassle of bringing a case against a business which ultimately has not proven to be a significant competitor.

Please note that I have no connection to Aero as anything other than a satisfied customer. The thoughts above are merely my professional opinion as an academic lawyer of some twenty years' experience, baed on the known facts of the case, and should not be read as any form of confirmation of Aero's position on the matter.
 

Sir Jacket

Practically Family
Messages
855
Location
London, United Kingdom
Hammerklavier, when you're buying a leather jacket like the ones we're discussing and that are the subject of this forum, you're buying into a story, one that will endure for at least the length of time you have the jacket – and the Simmons Bilt story is a seedy one.
 

Hammerklavier

One of the Regulars
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284
Location
San antonio
Hammerklavier, when you're buying a leather jacket like the ones we're discussing and that are the subject of this forum, you're buying into a story, one that will endure for at least the length of time you have the jacket – and the Simmons Bilt story is a seedy one.

That's true, my old leather jacket is like my old friend, it has a story, but since I am a graduate student who doesn't has lots of money to spend, I will choose SB HH as my first HH jacket, plus, I emailed (Facebook message too)Aero twice about some of questions I have, no reply at all, in the contrary SB answered my every questions.


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Hammerklavier

One of the Regulars
Messages
284
Location
San antonio
Hammerklavier, when you're buying a leather jacket like the ones we're discussing and that are the subject of this forum, you're buying into a story, one that will endure for at least the length of time you have the jacket – and the Simmons Bilt story is a seedy one.

Yes, and you should tell every SB jacket owner that they have a dirty jacket


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Edgar Laurel

One of the Regulars
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289
Location
Porto, Portugal
That's true, my old leather jacket is like my old friend, it has a story, but since I am a graduate student who doesn't has lots of money to spend, I will choose SB HH as my first HH jacket, plus, I emailed (Facebook message too)Aero twice about some of questions I have, no reply at all, in the contrary SB answered my every questions.


从我的 iPhone 发送,使用 Tapatalk

Strange, they usually reply fast.
Once I even emailed them from my professional email address and they answered right back.
 

Superfluous

My Mail is Forwarded Here
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If I remember correctly, the analysis showed that the SB jacket was near-identical, bar the sizing - Will had basically tagged a 36 as a 38, 38 as a 40 etc, which was intended to give them a slimmer look.

This is my recollection as well, and I think the analysis was performed by a third party professional employing rather thorough procedures. Without mentioning names, I am informed that the decision not to pursue a civil action was strictly based on the costs of the lawsuit, as opposed to the merits of the lawsuit. Unfortunately, economic obstacles frequently preclude parties from obtaining justice and/or recompense for wrongdoing.
 

Edward

Bartender
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25,082
Location
London, UK
Regarding communications, I've always foung Aero very quick to respond, under all managements. (Can't fairly compare to SB/AL as never dealt with them.)

I see Hammerjlavier there are Mandarin characters on the bottom of all your posts. Are you based in the Far East? Sometimes I know I have trouble with Chinese contacts not getting through my spam filter.
 

Cold Cuts

Banned
Messages
17
doesn't seem to be a difficult equation. Purportedly it is the exact same jacket, that is made with the same level of finesse on the same machines in the same way by the same people using very similar materials.. so if you can afford it you buy the original.

But if you can't afford such ethics then a roadster in vegetable tanned Italian horsehide for 500 GBP is, I would imagine, a very nice jacket with which to console yourself over an evening
 

MRB1248

Familiar Face
Messages
86
Location
Hopewell, NJ
Regarding communications, I've always foung Aero very quick to respond, under all managements. (Can't fairly compare to SB/AL as never dealt with them.)

I see Hammerjlavier there are Mandarin characters on the bottom of all your posts. Are you based in the Far East? Sometimes I know I have trouble with Chinese contacts not getting through my spam filter.

I don't know if I am on the outs with Aero, but it takes at least 5 days to get a response, if I even get one. And I am in NY working for a French bank, so I know the email should be working fine. And I've checked my spam folder to make sure it's not going in there. I am chalking it up to their super busy at this time of year.
 

Edgar Laurel

One of the Regulars
Messages
289
Location
Porto, Portugal
I don't know if I am on the outs with Aero, but it takes at least 5 days to get a response, if I even get one. And I am in NY working for a French bank, so I know the email should be working fine. And I've checked my spam folder to make sure it's not going in there. I am chalking it up to their super busy at this time of year.

Probably they have a big load of work.
 

Sloan1874

I'll Lock Up
Messages
8,427
Location
Glasgow
doesn't seem to be a difficult equation. Purportedly it is the exact same jacket, that is made with the same level of finesse on the same machines in the same way by the same people using very similar materials.. so if you can afford it you buy the original.

But if you can't afford such ethics then a roadster in vegetable tanned Italian horsehide for 500 GBP is, I would imagine, a very nice jacket with which to console yourself over an evening

You still here, Schitzo? Haven't you got a jacket to bulldog clip or something?
 

Cold Cuts

Banned
Messages
17
You still here, Schitzo? Haven't you got a jacket to bulldog clip or something?

What? And this is the second time now that I've had this from you. It's peculiar. Not sure what your game is but I can see it isn't friendly. For the record, I am not your friend Schitzo. My name is COLD CUTS. It means you address me as Cold Cuts, or Mr Cuts or CC etc etc.

Now that that's clear allow me to answer your question and return you one of my own.

No, I don't have a jacket to bulldog clip, whatever that means.

Do you not have some boots to lick?
 

Otter

One Too Many
Messages
1,445
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Directly above the center of the Earth.
What? And this is the second time now that I've had this from you. It's peculiar. Not sure what your game is but I can see it isn't friendly. For the record, I am not your friend Schitzo. My name is COLD CUTS. It means you address me as Cold Cuts, or Mr Cuts or CC etc etc.

Now that that's clear allow me to answer your question and return you one of my own.

No, I don't have a jacket to bulldog clip, whatever that means.

Bus Ted. You can't take the Schitz out can you ?

Do you not have some boots to lick?

Barkeeps, can you check this guy's IP address please ?
 

Superfluous

My Mail is Forwarded Here
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3,995
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