Adventurebilt hats confuse me

[fmw]

The only diference among the custustum hatters is shaping and finishing and sowing. Jeff

Yes, in other words the difference is in the craftsmanship. I don't know how different the level of craftsmanship is between the various custom hatters but, for the most part, I'm impressed with the products of all of them. I know I couldn't do it like they do it. I suspect they earn every dollar they make.

 

[Jedwbpm]

Ouch.


I think you just insulted every hatter here.

NO NO that was not my intent at all. I just got back from Danbury CT from dropping my daughter off at college. At one time in and around Danbury there were dozens of Felters. My wife's Uncle worked in one when he was young. Now there are two. I am sure that Winchester makes more then one grade of felt. I bet even Hatco make top quality felt for sale to others. I am also pretty sure that you and Art and Optimo,and the Major are getting or requesting pretty much the same grade of felt. What you do with it makes all the difference in the world. You are all getting most of your components form the same places since you are all trying to get quality components and since you work in a small industry the suppliers I assume are equally small.

You are very like the Bagpipe makers. Most are getting there wood from the same suppliers turning it on the same old machines and tuning it in classic shapes and some in modern shapes. $1500.00 gets you a pro grade looking and sounding set of pipes. Nail gets more because they are Nail and Sherman get a whole lot more and a couple of year wait because they can. Most of us this Nail might be worth the money and sound wonderful but that Sherman is just a lot of money and time. There are also a lot of guys that will only play old sets of pipes because "new ones just don't cut it". Like I said it is a lot like hats and pipes.

Sorry if you took offense non is meant.

Jeff

 

[Mobile Vulgus]

... I think you just described everything humans make, there, Jed. The highest names get the highest prices, but an item can be had for much less and still be a fine product. companies sell to each other, vendors make parts they sell to everyone... this is just like about every other item made. From golf clubs, to fishing rods, to hats and bagpipes, cars and hobby specialists. That is just how it all works. So, I guess I just don't get the point of what you are asking. I mean, it's all taken as fact, isn't it?

 

[Jedwbpm]

... I think you just described everything humans make, there, Jed. The highest names get the highest prices, but an item can be had for much less and still be a fine product. companies sell to each other, vendors make parts they sell to everyone... this is just like about every other item made. From golf clubs, to fishing rods, to hats and bagpipes, cars and hobby specialists. That is just how it all works. So, I guess I just don't get the point of what you are asking. I mean, it's all taken as fact, isn't it?

Back in 1987 I bought a new Pickup Truck. I settled on what I wanted and what I could afford. It came down to the dodge 1/2 ton and the Mitsubishi 1/2 ton. I found that the dodge was the same truck as the Mitsubishi, made by Mitsubishi but with a Dodge tailgate on it. The Dodge tailgate cost an extra $500.00. A lot of money back then. I bought the Mitsubishi. I am just trying to figure out who has the $500.00 Dodge tailgate.

Jeff

 

[fmw]

Back in 1987 I bought a new Pickup Truck. I settled on what I wanted and what I could afford. It came down to the dodge 1/2 ton and the Mitsubishi 1/2 ton. I found that the dodge was the same truck as the Mitsubishi, made by Mitsubishi but with a Dodge tailgate on it. The Dodge tailgate cost an extra $500.00. A lot of money back then. I bought the Mitsubishi. I am just trying to figure out who has the $500.00 Dodge tailgate.

Jeff

It reminds me. Several years ago my wife had a Chrysler mini van and I drove a Honda Accord. The Chrysler was an import (from Canada) while the Honda was made in the good old U.S.A. Chrysler isn't even an American company any longer.

 

[DanielJones]

Just wanted to add the reason I took on the Henry. I wanted a production hat to offer customers who didn't want to wait for my handmade custom hats. I looked for a production hat I would be proud of wearing and I could not find anything I like or would wear. Marc went to great lengths to get the very best work from the factory and sourced the best materials for this offering. Wasn't going to just go with what the factories offer. Nope , not good enough for Marc and that's why I lime these two men. They are very passionet about their hats.

Thanks for adding to that John. Yes it is a factory hat, but the components going into said factory hat are the best that Marc wanted and wouldn't settle for less, right down to the stitching. What you are getting is a top shelf factory hat that is almost as good as a custom as far as the materials that are going into it, without the wait time to have a hat made by hand or the extra cost. Does that about sum it up? Hope I got that correct.

Now with regards to Steve, Marc & John... Steve & Marc did a great justice for John in teaching him their techniques. And his end product is a testament to their teachings and John's hatting skills. As with any craftsman or Artist, every hatter has their own techniques that they discover on their own as well and I think that it can be seen in the details of each hatters lids. If you had these three make the same style hat, to the casual observer they would look alike, but get a little closer and you will see each man's signature on his work that will separate it from the others. All in all they are the top of their craft, and like any artist they learn and teach something new every day.

I am just happy that we have these men doing this still in an age where hats are a dying breed. I dig on the fact that there are even more that want to learn this craft to keep it alive and growing anew. I suppose that if it weren't for a certain fictional Archaeologist we wouldn't have these three to go to for their crafts to wear and it would just be ball caps and garbage hats. Yes, we have more than Steve, Marc, and John to choose from, and that is a good thing, variety is the spice of life, but they are the subject of discussion today.

Thanks guys and happy hatting!!:eusa_clap

Cheers!

Dan

 

[The Wiser Hatter]

It's not like custom hatters are making a killing here they are just artist's working to produce a quality product. Buy what you want no one is forcing anyone to purchase anything from anybody. Just love wearing a hat that looks good on you.

 

[tonyb]

I've been told there are a couple of overseas felters, Chinese I think.

But my experiences with hatters is that they... umm... blow wind from time to time to "protect their little secrets". I was told flat out by one that Winchester didn't produce a lightweight body. I only later discovered that they do. Speaking of which, didn't I hear that they were discontinuing the lite?

I wouldn't dispute that "blow wind" observation. I've heard a fair amount of nonsense myself. But not from the guys who post here.

I don't know which hatter told you that Winchester didn't produce a lightweight body, but I wouldn't take his or her answer as an outright prevarication. My understanding (which is secondhand, but I have never had reason to doubt my source) is that Winchester made lightweight bodies for a limited time, at the request of a particular hatter (or two), and that production was limited to the bodies they supplied to just that pair of hatmakers. As I recall, Winchester discontinued the lightweights because their failure rate was just too high.

Again, this is all secondhand, and also just my interpretation of what I heard. But it leads me to think that the person who told you Winchester didn't make lightweight bodies may well have been telling you the truth as best he or she knew it, even if it wasn't quite 100 percent accurate.

 

[Gumbo Book]

Interesting thread.

First hand experience at everything is what you should base your opinions on. Steve and Mark make great Hats. The differences are subtle but are definately there. And with John.
Someone who is a hatmaker has to plan his orders six months ahead or more. And that's hard. This isn't the 50's or 30's anymore. Not as many Felters - Not as many Block makers. I could go on.
These guys make hats in the traditional manner. big difference.
I have three Brown Fedoras. A herbert Johnson - Stetson Imperial - Borsalino. To the layman they all look similiar. But they are not. And eigth of an inch is sometimes a big thing when it comes to hats. And to pipes too.
Why deny that we are all sticklers for detail - for in the detail is where the craftman lies.
And there will always be bad hats made - as there will always be companys out for a cheap buck.
Just don't buy them.
Steve - Mark and John Have been a Huge insperation to me. Not just content with doing a thing - but doing it well. Here in the Uk we have nothing - nada - Zilch. My nearest Felter is in Portugal or Czech. Don't quote me on it - but I don't believe we even make them here anymore ( maybe the finishing but that's it )
Thank god there are guys like these Art - John and so on in the states.
So when A guy like me in the UK has very little options - I really can't understand what all the fuss is about. Off John and Steve you get a Beaver or Rabbbit at a very reasonable price. Some people in England pay $300 for a badly made factory hat. For that you can get a Custom hat for far less in U.S.
If there were more felters and more hatmakers then good materials would go down. Simple. But there aren't.
These guys are the first wave of things to come.
It is not for naught that John has indicted into the Hat Museum.

Be Patient.

( there maybe a few insincere people in the industry but there are none here at the Lounge )

Gumbo

 

[Jedwbpm]

I would like to once again state that I was not trying to cast aspersions on any one here or elsewhere. From the other thread and others about Adventurebuilt I was confused as to what was what and who was who and what the difference about each was. That has been cleared up for me. From what everyone is saying the Henry is a great hat. I would like to know who makes it. They may make other good hats. I doubt that anyone from Adventurebuilt will tell us. Just like Johnnie Walker won't tell you all the whiskey's in its blend. I have one kid in college and one almost there so a custom hat is not in my foreseeable future. A Henry may be a nice hat to get.

Jeff

 

[suitedcboy]

I hope someone corrects me if I am wrong.
My take on this custom hat thing is for some of the hatters there is a basic hat body that they get from felter and they block, flange, pounce, trim, bind, line, and sell. In any of those steps listed there is a lot of room for variety and for ingredients that make the quality of that maker's hats. You as buyer may pick up maker A's hat and the slightly fuzzier finish and a high sheen ribbon and a raw edge that is square profile finished and THAT hat strikes you as IT. Someone else picks up hat maker B's hat and his pouncing leaves the felt feeling like velvet (same hat body to start) and the ribbon is a low luster with little sheen and he bevels the edge of the brim after cutting and THAT hat strikes him as IT.
there is not a right or a wrong but the ribbon on B's hat costs more and the extra time to bevel the edge of brim through hand sanding takes time and takes him down a couple of hats per month. B's hat costs more.
THEN we take into account a hat maker with fancy brick and mortar. His B&M costs something to have and maintain.
Now we look into a hat maker that has some notoriety for whatever reason, that adds to price. Fame is something people pay for.
Now we get to hat makers that specify blends of furs that are out of the norm because with their "tricks of the trade" it yields a hat that is unique to them and their customers like it.
And then we get to very high quality selected rabbit and low end butt cheek beaver hair and you end up with some 100% beaver being cheaper when apparently similarly finished and trimmed, than the top shelf rabbit and feeling worse to handle.
You can't paint a stamped out of the same mold picture out of hat making, even factory hat making.
People have paid for smoke and mirrors for years in some ways.
You may have purchased a Chevy with a 350 V8 and paid a $500 premium over the 305 V8. The difference between the two is less than 10 dollars in cost but the 350 goes faster and that has value people will pay. When you buy some Lexus models instead of the same chassis-based Toyota with the same engine and transmission you see a value in that purchase. Maybe the value is the look on the face of your golfing buddy when pull up at the course . Maybe the "bling" of the Lexus is something you'll pay for.
If you are into the dollars and the other aspects don't affect you, then it makes no sense. A plastic tumbler will hold water just like a [insert fancy name I don't know] leaded crystal water glass. I play the dollars game with certain car parts that many have STRONG brand preference for so I can "get" the dollars and sense thing. I won't pay for brand name sugar, I accept that cheap sugar clumps more.

OH, Stetson has been a brand name licensed by Stetson holdings (or whatever the name) for maybe 4 decades now or longer and there has been no Stetson factory per se for a long time. RHE Hatco/Arena Brands got the deal for stetson hats about 10 years or so back.
Was the St Joseph Missouri Stetson plant ever actually owned by Stetson?

 

[Not-Bogart13]

I don't know exactly who manufactures the Henry, but I do know that the AB guys held them to very strict standards in terms of quality and craftsmanship. While I'm sure the manufacturer has it's "own stuff," there are certain touches that will put the Henry a notch above. Especially if you are a big fan of the Indy hat, and demand a great deal of accuracy in the duplication. I think, once you have a shortlist of quality hat options, the splitting of hairs is more about what the buyer's needs and desires are.

For example, I know that technically the AB Deluxe is the best of the Indy hats available. But I do not, personally, think that it's the right hat for me. That kind of money, after the exchange rates and all, exceeds the increase in quality that I can appreciate in a hat design that I can get domestically from Steve or John. In your case, Jeff, you might consider those hatters who have a rabbit fur option if you really want to go custom. The price would be in the same area as that of the Henry. You would not get as good a felt, but the benefits of a custom hat might mean more to you. John Penman could give you such a hat, and it wouldn't have to look anything like the Henry. But if getting it fast or having a better felt outweighs the custom fit and styling, then I think the Henry would be your best option.

 

[EggHead]

Let me throw Blacksheep hatworks into the mix. How do their materials and craftsmanship compare to above mentioned hatters?

 

[kaosharper1]

I have one kid in college and one almost there so a custom hat is not in my foreseeable future. A Henry may be a nice hat to get.

Jeff

I'd like to point out that Art Fawcett, Penman, and Moore make custom hats for about the price of the Henry. So you can get a great custom hat for a reasonable price and not have to wait a long time. Art even sends a conformer so he gets the exact shape of your head. For most people a regular oval is fine, but I'm a round oval and if I'm going to buy a custom hat I'd like it to fit me exactly.

Not to say anything against the various Adventurebilt hats, but they (along with Optimo) are the most expensive of the custom hatters we discuss here and also have the longest wait time. If people want a custom hat by the hatter for Indy IV then they can go for it. But there are other custom alternatives out there.

 

[bendingoak]

I have the same conformer and send it out upon request.

 

[DanielJones]

Good to know.

Cheers!

Dan

 

[kaosharper1]

I have the same conformer and send it out upon request.

Great to know is right for those of us who are spherically challenged.

 

[mayserwegener]

I will take the mechanized approach that produced the felt and finish on this 100% rabbit / hare felt hat.

 

[mayserwegener]

And this one too.

 

[djd]

Nice couple of hats there