A2 vs. G1

[tripreed]

UPDATE: Got my jacket

I got my Ebayed "G-1" in the mail today. While I am pleased with the fit and the jacket in general, it does seem to have the problem mentioned by Atticus a few weeks ago:

...They are stiff and heavy and are finished with a water-resistant substance that causes them to squeak like seagulls when they are worn.

Is there anything I can do about the squeaking? I did drop it off at the cleaners today as the inside needed cleaning (they ship it out to people who specialize in cleaning leather), perhaps that will help? Otherwise, I thought maybe an application Lexol or mink oil might help.

 

[Fletch]

Where does the G8 fit into the scheme of things?

No idea. I have been told both that it was and wasn't Navy issue. It's also called Type 440 (M-440? again, no idea).

Also, the M-444/445 and AN-J-4... what were the main differences there?

M-444: lighter fleeced version of '445.
AN-J-4: 1943 joint service model with extra big elbow patches that cover most of arm.

Those are just the main differences. I forget the rest.

 

[Edward]

No idea. I have been told both that it was and wasn't Navy issue. It's also called Type 440 (M-440? again, no idea).

M-444: lighter fleeced version of '445.
AN-J-4: 1943 joint service model with extra big elbow patches that cover most of arm.

Those are just the main differences. I forget the rest.

Thanks. It's starting to look like to me that the USN jackets evolved more subtly over time, whereas there were much greater difference in the AAF equivalents. I think it's getting time I'm gonig to have to bite the bullet and buy an expensive reference book.... I've been watching Buzz Rickson catalogues sell on eBay for about USD40, which seems like a good place to begin, if one turns up. Otherwise.... are the books on the Aero website worth paying for? £50 seems a lot if it's likely to turn out to be "only" a coffee-table book, but if it's full of information on the different types with clear photos of the variations over time and between models, it'd be great. I'm not at this point looking for an A2 specialist book, but something more general covering all the broad range of lfights jackets from the USAAF, 30s through to about the 50s.

 

[Fanch]

My Cooper G-1 in 46 Regular is much more of a trim fit than my Cooper A-2 in 46 Long, which is very baggy in the mid-section. For whatever reason, the overall sleeve and body lengths for the two jackets are similar. The goatskin on the G-1 seems more supple than the A-2. Both jackets are recent issue, although Cooper, unfortunately, is no longer in production. In any case, the Cooper G-1 seems to have been made with my somewhat slim 6'2" 188 pound frame in mind.

 

[Fletch]

are the books on the Aero website worth paying for?

No idea. I've been trying to educate myself on the web and so far doing OK.

My suspicion is that the best books on the topic are in Japanese and unlikely ever to be translated.

 

[Sertsa]

Thanks for this thread and many of the others.
I thought I'd post that, as this is my first post here and the forum's been helpful. I'm also debating the differences on which to get first and where. I was thinking of heading to US Wings' retail store this weekend, since I live about an hour away, but I'm not sure their jackets are the best option. At least I'll be able to try on some variations of G-1s, A-2s and others and see if anything works for me. Not a bad way to spend some time.

 

[number6]

jackets

Great idea to get out and try some on ,it's the only way to find out which model works best for you . Leather jackets are individual items , each one will feel different. Hope you have a good trip.

 

[Atticus Finch]

I got my Ebayed "G-1" in the mail today. While I am pleased with the fit and the jacket in general, it does seem to have the problem mentioned by Atticus a few weeks ago:



Is there anything I can do about the squeaking? I did drop it off at the cleaners today as the inside needed cleaning (they ship it out to people who specialize in cleaning leather), perhaps that will help? Otherwise, I thought maybe an application Lexol or mink oil might help.

Hi Trip,

I wish that I had a solution to the squeaky G-1 problem, but I don't. I have an issued 1976 Imperial Leather G-1 that weighs the same as a Massey Ferguson tractor and sounds like one, too. I've tried everything I can think of to "desqueak" it---Pecards, saddle soap, mink oil---but nothing has really worked. I'm pretty sure the problem with these jackets stems from the tough, water-resistant finish that was applied to them when they were new. To really silence the squeaks, one would probably have to remove this finish which, of course, would ruin the jacket.

Just part of the charm of a mid-seventies G-1!

Atticus

 

[Mojave Jack]

Where does the G8 fit into the scheme of things? It looks a lot like it may have been the design the Indiana Jones jacket (which I've always previously thought of as sort of an A2 designed without knits).

Edward, your comparison to the Indiana Jones jacket is right on the money. There never was a G-8 of any kind historically. It is actully just a clever marketing ploy to sell jackets in that style to folks who might not otherwise buy an "adventure" jacket.

I was curious myself on the origins, so I wrote to the staff at the Naval Aviation Museum in Florida, and asked the resident historians. I've since misplaced the e-mail they sent back, but the jacket and the concocted story behind it is, in a word, bunk.

EDIT: Found the e-mail.

Ater researching written and photographic records, I can find no evidence to support the claims of such websites as uswings.com that a Type 440 (G8) flight jacket was ever issued to US Naval Aviators. The claims appear to be bogus. The Specification M-422A was the first jacket issued to Naval Aviators in the 1920s. A version of this jacket issued during the interwar and early WWII timeframe was the AN-J-3A. Both the M-422A and the AN-J-3A were almost exactly like the later G-1. I hope this information helps.

Respectfully,
Daniel Clifton
Collections Division Head
National Museum of Naval Aviation

 

[Edward]

Edward, your comparison to the Indiana Jones jacket is right on the money. There never was a G-8 of any kind historically. It is actully just a clever marketing ploy to sell jackets in that style to folks who might not otherwise buy an "adventure" jacket......

Thanks for this..... interesting. I guess there's a market for that sort of faux-historical design stuff. I wonder then where the Jones jacket inspiration came from - was it indeed just an A2 less the elasticated cuffs and waistband to make it look less military, or was it more of a civilian inspiration.... I guess it could have been designed as a civilian-type jacket with the military-style patch pockets added as a useful place for adventuring bits and bobs. [huh]

I was curious myself on the origins, so I wrote to the staff at the Naval Aviation Museum in Florida, and asked the resident historians. I've since misplaced the e-mail they sent back, but the jacket and the concocted story behind it is, in a word, bunk.

EDIT: Found the e-mail.

Ater researching written and photographic records, I can find no evidence to support the claims of such websites as uswings.com that a Type 440 (G8) flight jacket was ever issued to US Naval Aviators. The claims appear to be bogus. The Specification M-422A was the first jacket issued to Naval Aviators in the 1920s. A version of this jacket issued during the interwar and early WWII timeframe was the AN-J-3A. Both the M-422A and the AN-J-3A were almost exactly like the later G-1. I hope this information helps.

Respectfully,
Daniel Clifton
Collections Division Head
National Museum of Naval Aviation

Nice of them to take time out to answer your enquiry like that. I didn't realise that the M-422A jacket was out as early as that - I'd assumed it came about around the same time as the A2, but from that email it obviously predates it. (Wonder where the G1 etc nomenclature comes from - later term, distinguishing the "air" and "ground"(?) jackets worn by the air force and navy respectively?) I wonder then is this having been around for longer the reason that all the surviving jackets I've seen that were worn by the American Volunteers in China were M-422A style - if they'd been in production that much longer, presumably there were more (surplus?) sitting in stock in a military store somewhere and available for sale to the AVF suppliers than with A2s? I wonder does this earlier design date also explain the difference with the war period navy jackets having buttons on the pocket flaps as opposed to A2 style snap fasteners?

No idea. I've been trying to educate myself on the web and so far doing OK.

My suspicion is that the best books on the topic are in Japanese and unlikely ever to be translated.

I think you may well be correct.... I guess that in some ways the wealth of information available on the net can cut drastically the size of the market for a specialist book on a given subject meaning fewer are produced in the English language at least. I still love both the internet and books as a source of information and learning.

 

[Edward]

At least I'll be able to try on some variations of G-1s, A-2s and others and see if anything works for me. Not a bad way to spend some time.

Can't beat the experience of trying on all the different styles and seeing what looks good on you and what doesn't, even if ultimately you end up buying by mail from elsewhere.

 

[kampkatz]

Jack,

Thanks for the info on the research. Always appreciate learning more facts.