A trend.

[VintageJess]

More on flag etiquette and code

Well said, WR!

For more on etiquette and code:

http://www.legion.org/?section=our_flag&subsection=flag_code&content=flag_code
http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html
http://www.usflag.org/

Jessica
Proud USMC Wife

 

[Wild Root]

Why thank you guys, I just spoke from the heart, that's how I feel about it.

=WR=

 

[yachtsilverswan]

The US "Civil Flag"

We fly the Civil Flag

Afternoon Dixon - Your post was very interesting to me. I enjoy learning about flag etiquette. I had not heard of a US "Civil Flag" though I am familiar with the similar flags used by the US Coast Guard and by US Customs. I was aware that some other countries use Civil Flags to distinguish between State and Civil functions.

So I did a little research. The North American Vexilogical Association (the study of all things flag) seems to disavow a US Civil Flag.

From their Q&A portion of their website:

Q: Hi, I'm in search of the United States Civil Flag which had the stripes that ran vertical with blue stars on white background. They say it was flown before the civil war. The flag is similar to the U.S. Coast Guard Ensign 1799-1910, except with blue Stars. Please help.

A: "They" say wrong. There is a rumor floating in virtual space that such a flag existed and that it's disappearance "proves" the US is suffering under illegal martial law. This is nonsense. The "proof" of the flag's existence is a passage in Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter," published in 1850. The introduction, titled "The Custom House," includes this description: From the loftiest point of its roof, during precisely three and a half hours of each forenoon, floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military post of Uncle Sam's government, is here established.

This is, of course, a writer's interpretation of the flag that is authorized to fly from each and every Custom House, the US Customs Ensign, which you have described as the U.S. Coast Guard Ensign 1799-1910 (which it also was since the Coast Guard was at that time a part of the Customs Service). Some early renditions of the flag show only stars instead of the blue eagle and blue stars on the white canton, but officially it has always been 16 (not 13 because it was adopted in 1799, before the flag settled out with 13 stripes) vertical red and white stripes with a white canton bearing a blue eagle and 16 blue stars usually arranged in an arc over the top of the eagle. The eagle bears a shield of the US on its breast (13 white and red pales with a blue chief).

This flag is still used today and, with the addition of the USCG seal in the center of the fly, is still used by the Coast Guard.

Since 1777, the only official US Flag for civilian or military or any other use has been the good old stars and stripes that we are all familiar with. Don't let yourself get hornswoggled! Dave Martucci

From: http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/qa/qa5.htm



And from the online encyclopedia Wickipedia:

Most vexillogists consider the Civil Flag a hoax. First of all, they note that all pictures and paintings of the "American Flag" show it to have the standard horizontal stripes and blue canton with white stars. They also note that past "peace" movements used the current flag rather than any "Civil Flag."

It is believed that the Civil Flag idea is a misunderstanding of Hawthorne's text and the flag behind it, which is nothing more than the flag of the United States Customs Service, which is very similar to that of the U.S. Coast Guard. This flag, which was introduced in 1799, actually has sixteen stripes (as the U.S. had sixteen states at the time) and the number of stars did not change. The old pictures of the supposed Civil Flag have the sixteen stripes and logo of the Customs service. Since Hawthorne was writing about a "custom house", it would only be natural that they would fly this flag.

Critics also point out that no major flag company sells this flag and it appears in no other sources besides Hawthorne's writing. They maintain that the Civil Flag is either an intentional hoax to make money or promote a cause, or a result of muddled research

The (Civil) Flag is seen as a marketing tool to get people to buy products representing the flag. While it may or may not be dishonest of them to mislead consumers into purchasing memorabilia, it still has its market demands. Those who have chosen to protest their views on wartimes have used this flag to demonstrate their feelings on world politics. The meaning of the Civil Flag, accurate or false, potentially could represent an official view of the American People under an official/unsupported design.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Civil_Flag



Civil discourse and peaceful protest are very healthy for the Republic. But for me, Old Glory flies at my home, the National Yacht Ensign flies from the stern of Silver Swan. There is no US Civil Flag because our Republic is of the People, by the People, and for the People. There is no distinction between the People and the State. The US Civil Flag is a hoax.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

Why of course...

Afternoon Dixon - Your post was very interesting to me. I enjoy learning about flag etiquette. I had not heard of a US "Civil Flag" though I am familiar with the similar flags used by the US Coast Guard and by US Customs. I was aware that some other countries use Civil Flags to distinguish between State and Civil functions.

So I did a little research. The North American Vexilogical Association (the study of all things flag) seems to disavow a US Civil Flag.

From their Q&A portion of their website:

Q: Hi, I'm in search of the United States Civil Flag which had the stripes that ran vertical with blue stars on white background. They say it was flown before the civil war. The flag is similar to the U.S. Coast Guard Ensign 1799-1910, except with blue Stars. Please help.

A: "They" say wrong. There is a rumor floating in virtual space that such a flag existed and that it's disappearance "proves" the US is suffering under illegal martial law. This is nonsense. The "proof" of the flag's existence is a passage in Nathaniel Hawthorne's "The Scarlet Letter," published in 1850. The introduction, titled "The Custom House," includes this description: From the loftiest point of its roof, during precisely three and a half hours of each forenoon, floats or droops, in breeze or calm, the banner of the republic; but with the thirteen stripes turned vertically, instead of horizontally, and thus indicating that a civil, and not a military post of Uncle Sam's government, is here established.

This is, of course, a writer's interpretation of the flag that is authorized to fly from each and every Custom House, the US Customs Ensign, which you have described as the U.S. Coast Guard Ensign 1799-1910 (which it also was since the Coast Guard was at that time a part of the Customs Service). Some early renditions of the flag show only stars instead of the blue eagle and blue stars on the white canton, but officially it has always been 16 (not 13 because it was adopted in 1799, before the flag settled out with 13 stripes) vertical red and white stripes with a white canton bearing a blue eagle and 16 blue stars usually arranged in an arc over the top of the eagle. The eagle bears a shield of the US on its breast (13 white and red pales with a blue chief).

This flag is still used today and, with the addition of the USCG seal in the center of the fly, is still used by the Coast Guard.

Since 1777, the only official US Flag for civilian or military or any other use has been the good old stars and stripes that we are all familiar with. Don't let yourself get hornswoggled! Dave Martucci

From: http://www.nava.org/Flag%20Information/qa/qa5.htm



And from the online encyclopedia Wickipedia:

Most vexillogists consider the Civil Flag a hoax. First of all, they note that all pictures and paintings of the "American Flag" show it to have the standard horizontal stripes and blue canton with white stars. They also note that past "peace" movements used the current flag rather than any "Civil Flag."

It is believed that the Civil Flag idea is a misunderstanding of Hawthorne's text and the flag behind it, which is nothing more than the flag of the United States Customs Service, which is very similar to that of the U.S. Coast Guard. This flag, which was introduced in 1799, actually has sixteen stripes (as the U.S. had sixteen states at the time) and the number of stars did not change. The old pictures of the supposed Civil Flag have the sixteen stripes and logo of the Customs service. Since Hawthorne was writing about a "custom house", it would only be natural that they would fly this flag.

Critics also point out that no major flag company sells this flag and it appears in no other sources besides Hawthorne's writing. They maintain that the Civil Flag is either an intentional hoax to make money or promote a cause, or a result of muddled research

The Flag is seen as a marketing tool to get people to buy products representing the flag. While it may or may not be dishonest of them to mislead consumers into purchasing memorabilia, it still has its market demands. Those who have chosen to protest their views on wartimes have used this flag to demonstrate their feelings on world politics. The meaning of the Civil Flag, accurate or false, potentially could represent an official view of the American People under an official/unsupported design.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Civil_Flag



Civil discourse and peaceful protest are very healthy for the Republic. But for me, Old Glory flies at my home, the National Yacht Ensign flies from the stern of Silver Swan. There is no US Civil Flag because our Republic is of the People, by the People, and for the People. There is no distinction between the People and the State. The US Civil Flag is a hoax.

... this is exactly why we've chosen the Civil Flag as the flag of We The People! This flag has NO historical significance nor does it represent any part of the U.S. Government. This flag is the Star & Stripes (albeit flown "inside out"!) and those Stars & Stripes represent the committment and allegiance of We The People to our Founders principles as embodied in the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It has become a way of saying, "I display the Stars & Stripes although not necessarily the ones our Government waves in people's faces around the world".

I too am one who believes that our Government has 'shamed' our flag around the globe since about the time they added the last two stars. A once respected and reveered symbol is now often burned and disgraced because of what our neighbors precieve as our Government's symbol.

Well I believe in the Founding principles - a Constitution designed to protect us from our Government and a Bill of Rights designed to enumerate our God given protections from government - our own Government!

I love my country. I reveer my Stars & Stripes. I swear my allegiance to my Constitution. But I utterly distrust my Government and the way they've mis-represented my values around the world under the banner of our nation's flag.

I suppose that in the long run, many people both here and abroad may come to consider the Government's flag the real hoax - considering how we've allowed our Government to stray from our Founding Priciples. The Civil Flag is just an alternative - meaningless except for those principles that it has come to represent. -dixon cannon

 

[Dixon Cannon]

I concur...

I don't fly any flags, but especially would not fly an American flag. I feel as though it would be construed that, in so doing, I was showing support for things or people that I, in fact, do not support nor think highly of. I say a prayer on Memorial Day and the 4th of July, instead. I do, however, have a replica of the Constitution framed on my bedroom wall. I do support and think highly of that.

It is well to remember that the flag itself is just a symbol. It is representative of some principle that is the reality behind it. Our flag once was a bold statement about the principles on which our Republic was founded and for which American patriots gave up their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.

To many, many people in this country and around this globe it means something else altogether. We can pretend that it doesn't - but we'd be kidding ourselves.

I'd agree with Strider; A little less flag waving and perhaps a little more Constitutional adherence. That is the true purpose of our nation's flag. -dixon cannon

 

[Wild Root]

You know what I saw the other day?

As I was driving down a narrow road in Arcadia, I saw a flag waving... it was our flag but... it was a copy of an original 13 colony styled star field like this...

I think that was really neat!

=WR=

 

[Strider]

Hummm, interesting. I read you're whole post, I can understand to a degree your point and I respect every American’s belief. However, I find it some what offensive that a fellow American would be ashamed of his/hers colors. Yes, the current administration isn't winning many friends, my land lord is very conservative but, she's not happy with the way things are being run. I'm not that happy about it either, I consider my self to be pretty conservative too. I fly my flag (48 star) in remembrance and reverence for our freedoms that we still share and the history that we have. Yes, years have passed and things change some times for the better and some times for the worst but, with all do respect, this flag has stood it's ground and speaks of many, many volumes of history... the work and sweat that has gone into this country is amazing, I respect it for what it sands for. The flag doesn't stand for the current President or who's working in DC, it waves for the things we have fought for, the freedoms we our families have protected and continue to protect. Every system has faults and problems, its human nature to have them! Nothing on this earth is perfect... NOTHING! I don't wave my flag in front of others, no, that's not the way to be patriotic, I simply display my antique flag in humble reverence for all those men and women who have sacrificed their lives for us... this I do and will continue to do with out reflection on who I vote for or who's in office at the moment. Flying the flag shouldn't be about that, it's about the fundamentals and what it stood for and means that our Founding Fathers envisioned!

=WR=

Uh huh. I understand all of that. Our Founing Fathers "envisioned" a country where I have the right to choose not to fly the country's flag. That's about as far as I'm going to take this, because saying what I really think about the American flag would probably get me banned. Like it or not, that's my right to feel the way I do, and as much as some people may try to convince me otherwise, doesn't make me any less of a person because I do, in fact, feel that way.

It is well to remember that the flag itself is just a symbol. It is representative of some principle that is the reality behind it. Our flag once was a bold statement about the principles on which our Republic was founded and for which American patriots gave up their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor.

Yes, the flag is a symbol, as is the act of flying it (or not). Symbols are created by people, but without people, symbols mean nothing.

To many, many people in this country and around this globe it means something else altogether. We can pretend that it doesn't - but we'd be kidding ourselves.

I can drink to that! I do not want to be lumped in with the blind "patriots" who fly their flags for (what I percieve to be) the wrong reasons. Let me relate a similar story. I used to wear a New York Yankees ballcap in memorium of Sept. 11th (I was in NY that day, about 8 blocks up after all, I deserve to wear it). I can't count how many times I have had random strangers tell me "Yankees suck!" or "[blank] the Yankees!" I wear the cap for a different reason, and am lumped in with another group entirely. Exactly what I want to avoid. So, I don't wear it anymore. I wear an NY lapel pin, instead.



Oh, and an upside down American flag is also a symbol of distress.

 

[Wild Root]

Very interesting, you know, people will think things no matter what. I’ve given up long ago to the thought of what others think. I used to care, I don’t care any more. People will say and think what they will but deep down you know you’re self and what you believe… if you wear a fedora or vintage clothes, you know what I mean, people will lump you into the “Zoot Suit” or “Gangster” crowd… people think of the most common thing connected to what they have seen… it’s sad in many respects but, you know, that’s just the way it goes. Some people have thought I’m a pimp or a gangster because I dress in sharp clothes and wear a fedora, people will say things if you stand out… and people will degrade a sporting team to promote their favorite team or, to start a fight… it’s all very childish when you think of it. My main gripe is people being afraid of what others think, it’s silly, who cares! Wear a NY cap, wear a what ever you want, fly “Old Glory” regardless what people will think you support or believe…. You know in your heart what you believe, that’s what matters is that you know and those around you who really matter.

Yes, the US has a bad name around the world but, there’s people in most countries that realize there’s good in every race and culture. People are people, there’s no changing that... the way to be a good American is by being a good example... we show people who we are by the way we act... set a good example, it's amazing how well foreigners treat another by the way they act.


Be a fine example, it pays!

=WR=

 

[Zach R.]

Interesting...there aren't any ramifications for flying an outdated flag are there? Flag Etiquette-wise? It just seems that some people might take offense to certain versions of a flag in these days of uber-political correctness (say, Alaskans and Hawaiians won't protest around your house which is flying the 48-star flag?)

 

[Feraud]

Flying the American flag does not necessarily support the current administration or every national U.S. policy.
Fly that flag because you support all those things you say we are lacking in the U.S. today!
Not flying the flag is apathy. If you really treasure those things from the days of Jefferson and Washington then reclaim those ideals!
Be the symbol.

 

[Wild Root]

Flying the American flag does not necessarily support the current administration or every national U.S. policy.
Fly that flag because you support all those things you say we are lacking in the U.S. today!
Not flying the flag is apathy. If you really treasure those things from the days of Jefferson and Washington then reclaim those ideals!
Be the symbol.

Now, that's what I'm talking about!

Well said friend!

=WR=

 

[Pilgrim]

I display the US flag on holidays and other appropriate days. I also have the flag mount placed directly over an exterior light so that if I forget to bring it in at night, it's illuminated as per proper protocol.

By flying it, I feel that I display respect for many things - and I specifically reserve the right not to endorse policies or decisions I disagree with. I admit that the current administration's policies have made me somewhat less prone to display it.

 

[J.B.]

I do what the Abolitionists did in the 1850s, when the U.S. Supreme Court denied that blacks had any rights "that whites are bound to respect".
I fly the flag ... but upside down.....

U.S. CODE: TITLE 4 [FLAG CODE] > CHAPTER 1 > § 8.(a)

"The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property."

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode04/usc_sec_04_00000008----000-.html

Interesting...there aren't any ramifications for flying an outdated flag are there? Flag Etiquette-wise? It just seems that some people might take offense to certain versions of a flag in these days of uber-political correctness (say, Alaskans and Hawaiians won't protest around your house which is flying the 48-star flag?)

Vexiollogists agree that any proper adaption of the U.S. Flag is suitable to be flown/displayed...

The answer seems to be that only 50-star flags are "official" but it is appropriate to display earlier examples, and they are readily available through many online flag vendors.

http://fotw.vexillum.com/flags/us-law.html#earlier

 

[Baron Kurtz]

So Chevalier should be arrested instantly? Is that actually a crime. If so, i'm laughing so hard that i can't type any more.

bk

 

[VintageJess]

Thank you for sharing...

A thought...

Both of my grandfathers were career military-- one Army and one Air Force. My parents grew up on bases all over the world-- from Tripoli, Libya to Paris to Fayetteville, N.C. They met on an Air Force base in Germany when my dad and my mother's father happened to be stationed at the same place. And, I owe my existence to that little bit of military people-shuffling.

Both of my grandfathers died before I was born. I learned about their war-time exploits only in yellowed newspaper clippings. I saw their faces only under the yellowed cellophane pages of family photo albums-- strong-jawed, young and lithe in their uniforms. I did not know them, but I know they were good men.

And if I ever needed proof of that-- solid, serious, hold-it-in-my-hands proof-- I could find it in the cedar chest in my parents' bedroom. When we were little, my brothers and I would hoist its heavy top to reveal that sharp, woodsy smell and two, small starry triangles-- deep blue, rich red, and brightest white against natty piles of faded blankets.

They were heavy--the thick fabric and careful stitching an offering of craftsmanship for each granddad's lifetime of service. There isn't much that inspires reverence and respect in a 6-year-old, but those flags always did.

When I first saw them, I didn't know that they had lent their weight to the caskets of the grandfathers I had never known. But I traced the stitches with my small fingers, sure that those simple triangles were heavy with history and honor, even when I didn't understand the reasons.

The little triangles made a muffled, clinky rattle when I moved them. If I pressed on them hard enough, I could feel something inside, but I never dared unwrap the present because I knew I could never make it just so again. Later I learned that each flag holds 21 shell casings, collected after seven fellow servicemen saluted each of my granddads with heads and muzzles held high.

After my brothers and I learned how to fold a flag--sometime during their early Boy Scout days--we were allowed to unwrap the triangles and touch the brassy casings inside, watch them clink and roll over the stars and stripes.

I remember I could almost hear three volleys the first time I saw those casings, almost feel the jolt, the hard blink, the held-back tears. I could almost hear the stark salute slide into the mournful beauty of "Taps."

Yes, if I ever needed proof of the kind of men my grandfathers were, it was in a cedar chest in my parents' bedroom. Those heavy triangles sent the message before I could fully understand it; they told of Messerschmitts and 38th Parallels and bombardiers before I knew what those words meant. Later, they allowed me, in some small way, to mourn the passing of heroes I had never known. They are much more than flags.

Wave yours proudly today. It is a shame that some in our own country wish us not to.

Sharpetoys,

What beautiful memories...I am extremely moved. Thank you for sharing them with us all.

Jessica

 

[J.B.]

How poignantly written. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Fedorista]

A thought... Wave yours proudly today. It is a shame that some in our own country wish us not to.

Great post.

BTW, my 'hood is so flag infested that I normally only fly it on 6/26 and 11/10 to fill in for the unenlightened.

 

[Dixon Cannon]

See what I mean??....

Flying the American flag does not necessarily support the current administration or every national U.S. policy.
Fly that flag because you support all those things you say we are lacking in the U.S. today!
Not flying the flag is apathy. If you really treasure those things from the days of Jefferson and Washington then reclaim those ideals!
Be the symbol.

I came back to this post to see what's up, and look at the 'conversation' that has developed! Flag waving is an interesting issue - the Nazi's did it, the Soviet's did it, even the colonial British did it!

The point is that government's tend to like flag-waving - it gives the impression of unwavering support - no questions asked. Look down the street; an endless sea of flags - but no one talking about the meaning, the purpose or the principles behind the image. Blind allegiance?

Our purpose for the 'Civil Flag' is nothing more doing what we're now doing.. talking,debating, and sharing ideas - and discussing that to which we seem to be in accord -those principles of Liberty on which our Constitutional Republic is founded.

I encourage each and everyone this Flag Day (14 June) to read the Declaration and the Bill of Rights and remember why we have them. For the problem we face is the same faced then; not the type of flag or the manner in which it is flown, but the object of governments run amuck that would rob us of Liberty while entertaining us with a charade of patriotism.
-dixon cannon

 

[Maj.Nick Danger]

As I was driving down a narrow road in Arcadia, I saw a flag waving... it was our flag but... it was a copy of an original 13 colony styled star field like this...

I think that was really neat!

=WR=

Now that's the flag I've always liked the best. I think because of the fact that it is so much closer somehow to the ideals that the founders of this country struggled for. So much closer to our roots and to a true feeling of patriotism.

I came back to this post to see what's up, and look at the 'conversation' that has developed! Flag waving is an interesting issue - the Nazi's did it, the Soviet's did it, even the colonial British did it!

The point is that government's tend to like flag-waving - it gives the impression of unwavering support - no questions asked. Look down the street; an endless sea of flags - but no one talking about the meaning, the purpose or the principles behind the image. Blind allegiance?

Our purpose for the 'Civil Flag' is nothing more doing what we're now doing.. talking,debating, and sharing ideas - and discussing that to which we seem to be in accord -those principles of Liberty on which our Constitutional Republic is founded.

I encourage each and everyone this Flag Day (14 June) to read the Declaration and the Bill of Rights and remember why we have them. For the problem we face is the same faced then; not the type of flag or the manner in which it is flown, but the object of governments run amuck that would rob us of Liberty while entertaining us with a charade of patriotism.
-dixon cannon

Well said, Mr. Cannon.

 

[raiderrescuer]

Flags...

I remember hearing something about the UCC/Strawman people where they believe the "Government Flag" was the Admiralty/Military Flag with the Gold Fringe and Eagle on top.
These are the same people who say you don't need a passport to leave the USA & don't need a Driver's License on the road and the reason your birth certificate has white lettering is the original is being used as collateral when the US filed bankruptcy in the '30's.

For me, I have my standard 50 Star US Flag that was raised on the USS Arizona for my Last Enlistment before I Retired.