A Message From Aero Leather USA

[ButteMT61]

This is good and I appreciate the dialog. However, I have to question the bit above about AERO USA. Nobody in their right mind would not assume AERO USA was not an extension of Aero Leather of Scotland. And given how long it existed and advertised as such, I think folks are going to have a tough time swallowing that. No potential customers are going to research that relationship given its reputation here and on eBay for so long. If it were used "incorrectly" Aero Learher should have stopped it (in my opinion). I'm not a businessman, but that seems to be common sense, or am I missing something here?
I'm not defending nor chastising anyone in this - I don't know enough to do so. But full-disclosure is needed to vet this out now. I'd hate for people to avoid Aero Leather because they're not comfortable using them. AERO USA gave us yanks a sense of comfort as Scotland is a long way away, and we all know that business done internationally can be risky. It's a damn shame it worked out like this. My order from July 2011 went without a hitch, so I have no clue why others didn't. I do know that Mark got hosed on some orders which he usually put up in three-day, no reserve auctions. These were already made jackets ready for immediate delivery. No clue if that added to his woes. I'm just sorry for all involved. Truly.

 

[2jakes]

Mark is not a rep or agent of Aero Leather Clothing yet you admit you allow him to use your registered name ??????

 

[feltfan]

Given that there has been a lot of discussion regarding Mark, I hope he is not in any way restrained from presenting his side of the story.
For the moment, I think it's worth noting that Aero Leather Scotland was aware as early as Fall of last year that multiple customers of
Aero Leather USA had been waiting up to two years for their jackets through no fault of their own. Was there a limit on the number of
jackets Mark could order in a month, making it difficult from a profit standpoint, to service customers whose jackets were not right the first time?
Given that Mark's eBay auctions were entirely public, would it have been so difficult to compare the number of completed auctions with the number
of orders received from Aero USA? In working with both Amanda (Scotland) and Mark (USA) I have noted that both parties seemed to employ
an informal means of keeping record of customer orders and details were sometimes not retained or mixed up. A database would help this process a lot.

I'm not drawing any conclusions, just saying these stories have two sides and certainly there are details we will never know.

 

[cloudylemonade]

This is good and I appreciate the dialog. However, I have to question the bit above about AERO USA. Nobody in their right mind would not assume AERO USA was not an extension of Aero Leather of Scotland. And given how long it existed and advertised as such, I think folks are going to have a tough time swallowing that. No potential customers are going to research that relationship given its reputation here and on eBay for so long. If it were used "incorrectly" Aero Learher should have stopped it (in my opinion). I'm not a businessman, but that seems to be common sense, or am I missing something here?

Mark was an official stockist of Aero, in that he bought from us to re-sell. As he only ever intended to sell Aero jackets, and no other brands we allowed him to use the name, in the same way Aero Japan do. He should never have been describing himself as an agent, or rep for us, in fact there should have been details in his descriptions explaining he was simply a retail outlet for Aero. But on this matter I cannot personally comment, because I have only recently come back to working at Aero, and I am unaware of the ways in which he presented himself before now.

There would never have been any issue with this at all if he'd continued to run his business in the correct way. That is the bottom line. We had no reason to worry about the in's and out's of how this appeared to customers, as we were lead to believe he was acting as he should.

Needless to say after this mess there will never be another outlet allowed to use our name, and in particular no Aero USA. International business will be far less risky than this has turned out to be for ALL involved.

It's starting to look obvious to me that the forum members, certainly those who post frequently were supplied with their jackets to help bolster Mark Moye's reputation. His 100% feedback on ebay is down to the 60 day limit on feedback, nobody expected their jacket in 60 days.

At the end of the day, you guys trusted him, we trusted him, everybody trusted him and his defeaning silence says far more than I can say. We've all been duped, we should all do what we can, I feel we are doing FAR more than almost any other firm in the world would do.

Holly

 

[Aerojoe]

However, I have to question the bit above about AERO USA. Nobody in their right mind would not assume AERO USA was not an extension of Aero Leather of Scotland. And given how long it existed and advertised as such, I think folks are going to have a tough time swallowing that.

We discussed this very same issue on this other thread;

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?62951-I-wonder-how-Aero-feels-about-this.

We weren't sure who owned the brand, where and who was who. Maybe allowing the use of a brand in such way is not a good strategy because clients are going to confuse the parent company with independent shops abroad and when something goes wrong, it can damage the brand good reputation.

 

[cloudylemonade]

Given that there has been a lot of discussion regarding Mark, I hope he is not in any way restrained from presenting his side of the story.

Absolutely not, I would love for him to come forward and offer an explanation. At this point in time no one is getting any response from Mark, much less us at Aero Scotland.

For the moment, I think it's worth noting that Aero Leather Scotland was aware as early as Fall of last year that multiple customers of Aero Leather USA had been waiting up to two years for their jackets through no fault of their own.

The fault of any customer waiting anymore than 6 months lies solely with Aero USA/Mark Moye. Only under extremely exceptional circumstances would anyone have to wait for longer than six months for a jacket from the factory, from the time the order was placed. If you can offer evidence of us knowing about this, please email me at holly@aeroleatherclothing.com, because I find it very hard to believe anyone in the factory was aware of this. I certainly wasn't.

Was there a limit on the number of jackets Mark could order in a month, making it difficult from a profit standpoint, to service customers whose jackets were not right the first time?

Absolutely not, Mark could order as many jackets as he liked, providing he could pay for them.

Given that Mark's eBay auctions were entirely public, would it have been so difficult to compare the number of completed auctions with the number of orders received from Aero USA? In working with both Amanda (Scotland) and Mark (USA) I have noted that both parties seemed to employ an informal means of keeping record of customer orders and details were sometimes not retained or mixed up. A database would help this process a lot.

We are busy enough in the factory dealing with day to day orders and actually making the jackets, it wasn't our responsibility to be checking up on Mark's ebay business. Please remember we are essentially a small business, and don't employ masses of people, as it stands everyone in the factory is already run off their feet. We do have an order system in place at Aero now, we have to allow for human error with a small number of orders, but when these mistakes do crop up they are often when orders are amended multiple times.

Holly

 

[cloudylemonade]

We discussed this very same issue on this other thread;

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?62951-I-wonder-how-Aero-feels-about-this.

We weren't sure who owned the brand, where and who was who. Maybe allowing the use of a brand in such way is not a good strategy because clients are going to confuse the parent company with independent shops abroad and when something goes wrong, it can damage the brand good reputation.

I think you are right Joe, with hindsight, it won't be happening again. We never expected these issues, as this has worked with various people, for many years in Japan.

 

[Aerojoe]

I think you are right Joe, with hindsight, it won't be happening again. We never expected these issues, as this has worked with various people, for many years in Japan.

Hi Holly

Anyway, please don't worry too much about reputation damage after this because Aero is and will be one of the favorite leather brands, now and then, in this forum or any other.

I do business with Japan sometimes and Japan is a totally different world. You can have bad experiences too but whenever you find a honest dealer, they are as trustworthy as a samurai.

 

[cloudylemonade]

Hi Holly

Anyway, please don't worry too much about reputation damage after this because Aero is and will be one of the favorite leather brands, now and then, in this forum or any other.

Thanks Joe, I'm trying not to worry too much, but I can't help it. I'm devastated to think that my family's hard work, for longer than I've been alive is at risk over actions we could not control. I greatly appreciate your sentiment tho, thank you.

I do business with Japan sometimes and Japan is a totally different world. You can have bad experiences too but whenever you find a honest dealer, they are as trustworthy as a samurai.

You're right there, I guess we've been victim of being too trusting.

Holly

 

[coloradorider]

I appreciate the way you're handling the situation and feel you've shown a lot of class and character in what is clearly a wide-ranging incident with Mark Moye. My opinion is that Aero Leather Scotland is doing what is necessary to protect it's good name and I wanted to counterpoint JLANDERSON who felt you're "bending over backwards". Given the time difference and your prompt answering of e-mails I would say that you are "bending over backwards" so if I've personally offended you Holly, I apologize because I do appreciate how your commitment to communication. Note that I don't equate you to Aero Leather Scotland but since you're a small business and the daughter of the founder I can understand why you feel ownership of this situation. I've addressed some of your specific questions below since I feel this is a learning experience for us all:

• We should have been more diligent? YES - Aero Leather Scotland should have been more diligent.
• He was never a rep or agent of Aero Leather Clothing Ltd, he was never paid a single penny by the factory, if he claimed to be such it was without our knowledge or permission. Mark Moye asserted he was the US representative of Aero Leather. This assertation was both on his ebay "about me" and his PictureTrail gallery. This was clearly a misrepresentation that Mark Moye corrected in his announcement on this forum and Aero Leather Scotland has been quick to point out. Only Aero Leather Scotland was in a position to correct this misrepresentation that persisted for YEARS.
• Other firms like Real McCoys pay us a commission for the use of our brand name in their products. When/If I deal with Real McCoys there is going to be no possible confusion they are a representative of Aero Leather Scotland. If/When I buy an Aero Jacket from Insurrection in Seattle there is going to be no confusion that they are a US representative of Aero Leather Scotland.

All this information was available over the internet. I am not accusing Aero Leather Scotland of malfeasance. I'm only suggesting that had Aero Leather Scotland took ten minutes doing an internet search on Mark Moye's business Aero Leather Scotland would have recognized he was misrepresenting himself and coat-tailing on Aero Leather Scotland's good name and reputation. Had you not acted decisively as you had when the extent of Mark Moye's deceptions came to light you would have been accessory to Mark Moye's ongoing deceptions and I would have a much different opinion of Aero Leather Scotland. Aero Leather Scotland's lack of oversight led to a no-win situation for everyone involved. I understand perfectly how this could happen, especially given the 10 years of excellent service by Mark Moye that many members have recounted, and I feel that any defamation of Aero Leather Scotland is inappropriate. I feel your personal contribution has been more than expected an I appreciate that. I would expect that Aero Leather Scotland will be more careful in the future so a rogue reseller doesn't misrepresent himself to have the full support and backing of a well-regarded business. If you feel I'm being unfair, please PM me as we've communicated via e-mail, and we can discuss further.

 

[dr.velociraptor]

My order from July 2011 went without a hitch, so I have no clue why others didn't.

On this site there are few personalities who are very active on the board and a mouthpiece for Aero and Mark at Aero USA (you would be considered one I think as well as Hoosier and a couple others) and you can't figure out why your transactions went off without a hitch? I have a theory but of course no definitive proof, but it would appear those here at the Fedora Lounge who post a ton about Aero jackets and Mark at Aero USA had their transactions go smoothly to boost his reputation meanwhile he strung others along for years after taking all money up front or deposits.

Call it speculating if you want but in my opinion from the evidence I've seen here from scammed buyers and Holly at Aero's responses, Mark Moye was taking deposits on jackets he never intended to actually order for quite a long time now, it seems pretty obvious from the posts I've read here. In my world that's a thief and I almost fell victim to it. I will own an Aero jacket someday but I'll deal directly with the factory.

___________________________________________________________

The problem with Aero being duped by this guy is they allowed him to use the Aero USA name, by doing that it appeared he was directly affiliated with Aero, any sensible person would make that connection. So Aero Scotland really can't say "well didn't know the ins and outs of his business etc..." that would fly if they didn't allow him to use the Aero USA moniker. I know I thought Aero USA was directly affiliated with Aero Scotland, there is no reason not to think that.

 

[ButteMT61]

On this site there are few personalities who are very active on the board and a mouthpiece for Aero and Mark at Aero USA (you would be considered one I think as well as Hoosier and a couple others) and you can't figure out why your transactions went off without a hitch? I have a theory but of course no definitive proof, but it would appear those here at the Fedora Lounge who post a ton about Aero jackets and Mark at Aero USA had their transactions go smoothly to boost his reputation meanwhile he strung others along for years after taking all money up front or deposits.Call it speculating if you want but in my opinion from the evidence I've seen here from scammed buyers and Holly at Aero's responses, Mark Moye was taking deposits on jackets he never intended to actually order for quite a long time now, it seems pretty obvious from the posts I've read here. In my world that's a thief and I almost fell victim to it. I will own an Aero jacket someday but I'll deal directly with the factory...

All I can say to you is "WOW!" I supported Mark (AeroUSA) here as my experiences were good, not the other way around, as I've done for Aero Scotland and other makers I've had good dealings with. It's highly offensive to me (and I'm sure others) to read your insinuations in this post. I am not - will not ever be - a mouthpiece for anyone. I simply stated my pleasure based on BUSINESS done with Mark Moye. Your sick twisting of that is offensive to say the least. Unlike some, I don't "try a case" based on partial info - which is what everyone here is doing. We don't know the whole story - in spite of Mark's post and subsequent posts by Aero employees. This kind of crap will get the thread locked. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen - but be careful about your accusations.

 

[dr.velociraptor]

All I can say to you is "WOW!" I supported Mark (AeroUSA) here as my experiences were good, not the other way around, as I've done for Aero Scotland and other makers I've had good dealings with. It's highly offensive to me (and I'm sure others) to read your insinuations in this post. I am not - will not ever be - a mouthpiece for anyone. I simply stated my pleasure based on BUSINESS done with Mark Moye. Your sick twisting of that is offensive to say the least. Unlike some, I don't "try a case" based on partial info - which is what everyone here is doing. We don't know the whole story - in spite of Mark's post and subsequent posts by Aero employees. This kind of crap will get the thread locked. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen - but be careful about your accusations.

I'm not making any accusations about you, I suppose I am about Mark Moye but so did Holly from Aero (she basically wrote the same thing), but you post here A LOT, particularly about Aero jackets and the guy Mark Moye, Mark obviously knows that and is smart enough to know that if he provides you with a great transaction you will post about it here where people will listen, even while he strings along other buyers for years without providing a jacket, this was done clearly to bolster his rep unbeknownst to you. Not sure how you take that as offensive unless you're just looking to be offended.

 

[Aerojoe]

Mark Moye asserted he was the US representative of Aero Leather. This assertation was both on his ebay "about me" and his PictureTrail gallery.

This is a common practice worldwide. You reach a distribution agreement with a big brand and then you claim you are "representative of...". I don't think it is a good practice at all but it happens all the time, and sometimes it is very difficult to cut because you can be in a different country and you legally can't do nothing about it.

BTW, I wish you good luck and hope you recover your money or get your jacket soon

On this site there are few personalities who are very active on the board and a mouthpiece for Aero and Mark at Aero USA (you would be considered one I think as well as Hoosier and a couple others) and you can't figure out why your transactions went off without a hitch? I have a theory but of course no definitive proof, but it would appear those here at the Fedora Lounge who post a ton about Aero jackets and Mark at Aero USA had their transactions go smoothly to boost his reputation meanwhile he strung others along for years after taking all money up front or deposits.

This is tooooootally unfair and unjustified :mad2: I put my hand on fire for Butte fellow I think he's just a leather fan, as much as me or many others in here and he never ever, even by chance, meant second intentions or any harm to any forum member. Aero jackets are superb product and the brand has many fans worldwide, regardless bad behavior of independent retailers .

And regarding Mark Moye, Holly never accused him of anything, she just explained what happened on her side of the business. We don't know what happened on Moye's side. You know, sometimes businesses go wrong for many reasons. Maybe his bank cut his credit line, maybe he just suffered an accident or he's ill. There are a zillion of US Brands that went down the toilet before Moye's. Just try too book a flight with the powerful Pan Am.

 

[ButteMT61]

Aero happened to be my first dive into custom jackets, based on its reputation here. I tried getting jackets from others too, but when I began, I was larger and most of them didn't do my size. Aero was my only choice. Mark did right by me. He doesn't frequent forums. You're again extrapolating something you have no proof of. In turn, Aero Scotland could be doing the same here with longstanding customers. You didn't say that? Everyone starts somewhere, and trust me, had Aero or AeroUSA hosed me, I'd have posted relentlessly. I post a lot online as I work on a computer all day long. While testing, working or scripts are running, I use it as a diversion from 1's and 0's. I enjoy it. It's a hobby that like others, gives me joy. I'd no more cover for a crook than be one.
I don't use the term offensive lightly. In fact, I hate that term. But your post qualified.
I take no pleasure in the pain of anyone involved - Mark, Aero, customers and fellow loungers. I also don't pass judgement based on partial information.

 

[Tony B]

I have spoken to Will at aero several times and the impression I have been left with is of a very good decent honest man with no side to him at all.

THAT is probably why the name was allowed to be used by someone else, decent people like that generally give people the benefit of the doubt because thay are honest themselves they imagine that other people will be the same. It's a shame when people abuse trust placed in them but there you go, at least they have learned and won't be making that mistake again that is all you can ask.

As for Mark Moye I have read his listings several times and was never left in any doubt that he was for want af a better word a procurer who ordered jackets from the factory as an independent operator so that people on the US could deal with someone in their own country and not have to take the risk of being hit by import duty or whatever it is called your side of the pond, when getting stuff imported themselves, but then I am the sort of sad git who reads instuctions before making flatpack furniture so I know what I am upto....going to miss the pics on his listings though, he did know how to make those jackets look their best.


Last time I saw anything like this the middleman turned out to have suffered a nervous breakdown (genuine I was assured) and was no longer fit to process orders or conduct his business unfortunatley he was always well enough to process the payments as soon as they turned up. I hope this doesn't turn out to be the same type of thing but being on the receiving end of that has made me a cynical git about people who manage to process payments but not orders.

Good luck to everyone owed money and don't give an inch, it just uses time up, get it resolved as soon as possible. If there is only a certain amount of money left in the pot to repay people make sure you are there first and it is the other guy who misses out. It is business after all.

 

[cloudylemonade]

It's almost 8pm here in Scotland, and it's time for me to take a break after a 70 hour week.

All I'll say further to this for now, is that there's been a lot of comment about this all being very one sided, and that Mark hasn't put his side of things forward. I'd urge him to do so, as long as he speaks the truth. We have absolutely nothing to hide, so please Mark, if you're reading this, speak up.

Any delayed responses from me for here on in are due to me going out for the night, time to escape the laptop for a while.

 

[dr.velociraptor]

This is tooooootally unfair and unjustified :mad2: I put my hand on fire for Butte fellow I think he's just a leather fan, as much as me or many others in here and he never ever, even by chance, meant second intentions or any harm to any forum member. Aero jackets are superb product and the brand has many fans worldwide, regardless bad behavior of independent retailers .

Here is what Holly wrote:

"It's starting to look obvious to me that the forum members, certainly those who post frequently were supplied with their jackets to help bolster Mark Moye's reputation."

She is of the same mind I am that clearly Mark Moye made it a point to provide the more active members with excellent service while stringer others along for years. If you don't think there's a reason for that so be it, I happen to think there was a very clear reason. Not sure why you guys are looking to be offended but it is the internet.

 

[Tony B]

One thing about the fella I got stuck by that was similar, some orders were being filled by him right to the end, including custom stuff and there seemd no ryhm nor reason to it , some orders got filled other ddn't, just seemed to be pot luck, ALL payments were taken though.

 

[cloudylemonade]

I'm not making any accusations about you, I suppose I am about Mark Moye but so did Holly from Aero (she basically wrote the same thing), but you post here A LOT, particularly about Aero jackets and the guy Mark Moye, Mark obviously knows that and is smart enough to know that if he provides you with a great transaction you will post about it here where people will listen, even while he strings along other buyers for years without providing a jacket, this was done clearly to bolster his rep unbeknownst to you. Not sure how you take that as offensive unless you're just looking to be offended.

I will say one more thing, I don't think anyone is accusing any board members of looking for special treatment, but I do think its a resounding coincidence that the frequent posters have been treated very well, when there's a LARGE number of people who do not post on these forums (or at least not as frequently) who haven't received the same kindness.

I would hope that anyone ordering directly from us has been treated the same, as you know by now until now we've not had the time to monitor what is being said here, and I'm sure once things have settled down, and hopefully refunds have been made, I won't have the necessity to continue, at least not as reguarly.