A Good Question

[Caledonia]

Ok, here's a proposition, totally unresearched, just an opinion :

This game playing malarkey is about competition. In most species the males have to prove themselves, show off their strength and vigour so the female can pick the best one to produce strong offpring. The game playing is about young women asking you to prove yourselves by pursuing them, by being stubborn and focussed on that female, ie showing that you have what it takes to stay the course for, well, breeding and subsequent protection of young until the female and young can fend for themselves. Ok, some of it's odd, but that's in essence what they're doing. The 18-25 period is obvious. It's when (1) females are realising it's a competitive market out there. They have to compete against each other to nab the few decent males, and (2) they have to make the men show off so they can pick the best one.

And if you look at the 18-25 young male, they're doing the same. Being highly competitive between each other, and trying their best to nab the best females.

It's only biology. The reason women tend to calm down as they get older is because the reproductive urge, and/or consequent need for a provider, dies down. Men can stay really competitive for decades because they can keep reproducing.

There are lots of people of both sexes who don't play games. They are either confident in themselves or don't expect or want to pair up. The converse is that some people don't work out that the game playing becomes less and less necessary. But there's always a scale to everything.

 

[Fred G.]

I am pretty bad at analogies, but I think it's the best way to communicate this, Arrow.

It's like a joke: If I have to draw you a road map so that you get it, it ain't funny.

But, if you understand the context, you immediately get the punch line and see the humor in it.

A whole lot of communication is nonverbal... read up on body language.

Fellows like low hanging fruit (fruit on the ground will do in a pinch). A young lady will look at as, "Sure, there's low-hanging fruit... but how come everybody else who passed this tree didn't eat it? The fruit at the top of the tree is harder to get, but is probably worth it, or it wouldn't be so hard to get"

Ladies, what do you think? Good assessment or no?

 

[LizzieMaine]

There are lots of people of both sexes who don't play games. They are either confident in themselves or don't expect or want to pair up. The converse is that some people don't work out that the game playing becomes less and less necessary. But there's always a scale to everything.

I think a lot of this has to do with social conditioning as much as it does biology, really. Young people of both sexes learn how to interact with the opposite sex by the most part from observing their peers -- and this is basically a matter of the blind leading the blind. A teenage girl watches her friends "playing games" with boys, and she figures that's the way it's supposed to be done, so she does it too. And her friends watch her, and the cycle keeps repeating itself. Same with boys, I'd imagine -- either way it's not about sincerely learning how to relate to the opposite sex as much as it is about being part of the peer group, and that leads to the sort of bad habits that can dog one thruout life.

The reason I believe this is because I *didn't* have that kind of experience. I wasn't allowed to date as a teenager, so I never picked up that kind of experience and never learned how to play those games. I never dated anyone till I was 25, and we were married for fourteen years -- so I really never had a chance to pick up the habit of game playing later on, either. And now, post-marriage, it drives me crazy when guys just *assume* as a matter of course that I'm playing games with them and respond by playing their own games back. I guess that's why I've only had two dates since my divorce and neither one worked out.

It's very silly and tiresome, all these rituals and all this gameplaying, no matter how old one is...

 

[jazzzbaby]

lol!! I can't help but laugh out loud on this one! I could say the same for men. Luckily for me I realized this about my husband who at one time very much fit this statement....and I broke him of the habit by being so forward myself with what I am thinking. I am very honest, straight forward and sometimes too much so. I have to be careful, but I still get my foot stuck in my mouth at times. Not a pretty sight! :eusa_doh:

 

[Baron Kurtz]

certainly in this college town, people seem to take the meeting, wining dining thing far too seriously. Go to a bar/restaurant and you'll see at least three couples sitting nervously across the table from each other, desparately attempting not to break any social taboo and attempting to fit into their prescribed role vis a vis "a DATE". This results in a very poor date, methinks.

And everyone appears to be playing games: the girls and the guys, of whatever sexual orientation. I mean, who in the name of God sets traps and tests for someone on the first or second date? It's absurd. I'm so glad i didn't have to deal with this stuff in this town.

As i see it, it's quite simple: chill out. be yourself. Talk about politics, religion and sex if you want to. She doesn't like you? So be it. Plenty more fish and all that.

bk

 

[mysterygal]

I think the mind games can go either way with the sexes, since I've met men who were 'just as bad as a woman' I tend to think more like a guy so like my husband says, I don't have a lot of those weird quirks. [huh] Man or woman, if the person is playing games, RUN like hell! not even worth it. Though I will give you some advice arrow, girls do like a bit of a challenge, for the most part they don't want an over eager guy looking at other parts than their eyes. Be a gentleman, but remember to court the lady.
Cal; I find this to be the opposite though (of women getting calmer as they get older), this is when the uh...drive seems to kick into high gear, which seems weird that it's the opposite for guys!

 

[Doh!]

Last year, a friend had his birthday gathering at Trader Vic's here in town (nice place) and one of my co-workers knows him casually so she showed up. They were chatting for quite awhile and he gave her his number. She, in turn, gave him her work number (a sign?). He called her the next day and left a message. Because there was no returned call, he called her again a couple of days later. Still no call, so he emails (or "electro-posts") me to see if she'd been at work that week. And yes, yes she had been there.

Later on that week, some co-workers went out for drinks (I like drinks) so I went up to the girl and we had the following exchange; keep in mind, all parties are over the age of 30:

"Why didn't you call my friend back?"
"He's really not my type."
"Then why did you give him your number?"
"Because I didn't want to be rude."
"Well, isn't it just as rude not to return his calls? Why not just tell him?"
"Look, I didn't call him back so it should be OBVIOUS I'm not interested."

Stunned silence from me for a few seconds and then...

"Gee, I can't imagine why you're not married by now."

 

[Barry]

I think all these games are even worse with online dating. I went out with one woman and had a nice time. She was easy enough to talk to and we had a few things in common. We even wound up having some mutual friends - go figure. Anyway, I guess I thought there was some chemistry - it turned out she wasn't feeling any at all. I called her and left a message saying I had a nice time, etc. She followed up with an e-mail. She wrote: "Look, I honestly don't see this going anywhere. Best of luck to you in the future. Take Care." Honesty hurts sometimes and that's all good and well. Never spoke to her or heard from her untill....many months later I get an e-mail from her asking about something in my online profile (I think I mentioned rockabilly or swing). "I've been meaning to ask you, what is rockabilly music? Who are some performers? By the way, I talked to Dave, his sister moved to Israel this summer." It was as though she was continuing where our conversation ended 6+ months prior. I wrote back and never heard from her again. [huh]

 

[Fred G.]

Precisely My Point

The lady was trying to avoid a blunt let-down in person...

After a couple of calls not-returned, she's obviously not interested. Don't make the lady scream it at you...

 

[herringbonekid]

i think 'dating' in england is quite different and not so coded and ritualistic as it is in the states, and i must admit i don't know what half of these 'games' you're all referring to are. i also despair at the centrality of the mobile phone in modern dating.

Caledonia, i'm impressed by your objective zoological eye on the whole messy business.

 

[jazzzbaby]

I think all these games are even worse with online dating. I went out with one woman and had a nice time. She was easy enough to talk to and we had a few things in common. We even wound up having some mutual friends - go figure. Anyway, I guess I thought there was some chemistry - it turned out she wasn't feeling any at all. I called her and left a message saying I had a nice time, etc. She followed up with an e-mail. She wrote: "Look, I honestly don't see this going anywhere. Best of luck to you in the future. Take Care." Honesty hurts sometimes and that's all good and well. Never spoke to her or heard from her untill....many months later I get an e-mail from her asking about something in my online profile (I think I mentioned rockabilly or swing). "I've been meaning to ask you, what is rockabilly music? Who are some performers? By the way, I talked to Dave, his sister moved to Israel this summer." It was as though she was continuing where our conversation ended 6+ months prior. I wrote back and never heard from her again. [huh]

Boy that was rude...to just contact you out of the blue & then not even say thank you for writing back after you responded. I do swear that being insincere and having no class or tact is quite common in our society. There use to be rules of etiquette between men & women. I suppose though that when it comes to the matters of the heart it has always been complex. In the end with these final circumstances with a person, you just have to wipe your brow and say "Whooo!" thank goodness I didn't connect with this one.

 

[carebear]

The lady was trying to avoid a blunt let-down in person...

If you (or she, to be precise) are implying it was for his sake I have to call BS.

She was trying to avoid making HERSELF uncomfortable, which shows a lack of character.

If she wasn't interested, she should not have taken his number or given her own.

If I'm offered a business opportunity in which I am not interested I turn it down right there. If I'm proslytized at my home or in public and I'm not interested I turn it down right there, politely at first and then as directly and firmly as may become necessary. Going out on a first date or a chance meeting and introduction is handled the same way by grown-ups.

This whole "they should get my 'signals'" is arrogant tripe and childish and demands others correctly interpret your meaning.

This whole "don't hurt anyone's feelings" garbage is simply an escape for people who can't say no for whatever reason. Which is THEIR problem, not the askers.

As long as you are not rude, there is nothing "hurtful" about being direct.




But I'm not bitter.

 

[ArrowCollarMan]

I went to Britain. British people are chill but somehow very angry. Polite as all get-out though. But as for games, herringbone, its like sending signals. A girl will make constact eye contact with a guy and think "Oh, he must know I like him now!" or talk to him about weird stuff, invite him everywhere etc...some might be obvious but most are not. Then the girl gets really frusterated because they guy just doesn't get it. And in their minds guys become oblivious bafoons when its girls who really don't have a clue.

I wasn't allowed to date as a teenager

I think thats dumb. When parents say something like "You can only date when you're 17" it just seems overprotective and not realistic. Whats that going to do, stop them from liking the opposite sex? No. Chances are the kid will date anyway and not tell their parent. Then there will be lies and deception and wouldn't you rather know who your kid is dating then have someone you've never met courting them around? It doesn't really make sense when I look at it that way.

 

[carebear]

Whats that going to do, stop them from liking the opposite sex? No. Chances are the kid will date anyway and not tell their parent.

Depends on the kid, the parents and their relationship. There are ways of interacting with the opposite sex that aren't one-on-one, private dates. Group dates or groups of friends out doing activities immediately come to mind.

Remember that the solo, no chaperone, date really only came into vogue (and practicality) with the rise of the automobile, which gave the kids mobility and privacy from adults. Even until the '50's and '60's dates were typically limited time affairs ("have her home by 10") with the comings, goings, associated persons and planned activities monitored.

Solo dating, especially in the evening, was typically for those "going steady" with most of the initial "get to know you" dating done as doubled couples or groups with potential partners often being screened and introduced by friends and family.

I'm not convinced we've improved on that old system. Especially since we'ved moved 'petting' as an activity for somewhat recognized couples (pinned) to the normal first date closure session.

There's a lot of women I've been involved with that it would have been better for my friends and family to have screened first :eusa_doh: and my most meaningful and successful relationships have been with women I knew at least 2nd hand before we moved from 'friend/acquaintance' to 'romantic partner'.

 

[Lancealot]

I agree with you carebear.

Because I have always wanted my romantic interest to be my best friend.

I have learned the hard way to trust my friends and family when it comes to relationships. They always seem to be able to see future problems before they show up. Which shouldn't be surprising since it seems easier to see things from the outside.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

Wow, I'm learning a lot on this thread....

As for gals and our games, I think men are just as guilty as mind games as woman. I think it gets a little better in your 30's.
I really can't say I'm guilty of playing games with guys. I have a habit of telling it like it is. I am good at figuring out what others are thinking, so I can luckily tell what a guys true intentions are before feelings get too involved. Linving with a male roommate is helpful too. Although Hem isn't the typical guy, he's a gentleman. But I can usually figure out the girl he's dating and the games she's gonna play. I don't know if this is because i have a sociobiology degree (yup, I studied Darwinism and evolution before coming to my senses and becoming a dental hygienist) or if it's just plain ole' woman's instinct.
We all play games. It's a sad fact of the dating world. The reasons just differ between genders. I think they date back to Darwinism!

 

[carebear]

Because I have always wanted my romantic interest to be my best friend.

I get a lot of curious looks from new co-workers, acquaintences and fiends when they realize that I am still friends to one degree or another with most of the women I've been seriously involved with.

Even the two I was close to marriage with, after the romantic hurt died down, we realized we still genuinely liked each other and enjoyed each others company. Most of their husbands are mature enough to recognize that if I was still a romantic threat their wives wouldn't be with them in the first place.

You have to be cautious that the primary emotional intimacy remains inside the marriage (especially when you've been friends for a decade) but there are few enough fantastic people in this world, men or women, that I and they are loathe to give any up.

 

[Lancealot]

I get a lot of curious looks from new co-workers, acquaintences and fiends when they realize that I am still friends to one degree or another with most of the women I've been seriously involved with.

Even the two I was close to marriage with, after the romantic hurt died down, we realized we still genuinely liked each other and enjoyed each others company. Most of their husbands are mature enough to recognize that if I was still a romantic threat their wives wouldn't be with them in the first place.

You have to be cautious that the primary emotional intimacy remains inside the marriage (especially when you've been friends for a decade) but there are few enough fantastic people in this world, men or women, that I and they are loathe to give any up.

I'm the same way I'm still friends with a couple of my ex's. After the hurt is gone you realize that you still care for each other and just have a good time together. I make sure to tell anybody I'm dating up front that there are some ex-girlfriends I still stay in contact with.

Your also right on keeping the primary emotional intimacy between two devoted people. Because if you don't things start to fall apart.

 

[Lancealot]

Wow, I'm learning a lot on this thread....

As for gals and our games, I think men are just as guilty as mind games as woman. I think it gets a little better in your 30's.
I really can't say I'm guilty of playing games with guys. I have a habit of telling it like it is. I am good at figuring out what others are thinking, so I can luckily tell what a guys true intentions are before feelings get too involved. Linving with a male roommate is helpful too. Although Hem isn't the typical guy, he's a gentleman. But I can usually figure out the girl he's dating and the games she's gonna play. I don't know if this is because i have a sociobiology degree (yup, I studied Darwinism and evolution before coming to my senses and becoming a dental hygienist) or if it's just plain ole' woman's instinct.
We all play games. It's a sad fact of the dating world. The reasons just differ between genders. I think they date back to Darwinism!

I wish you could give some of the ladies I have gone out with lessons. Has far has game playing lessoning when you get to your 30's that's what has always attracted me to older or more mature ladies.

I'd like to think there are a few of us gentleman left out there.

 

[Wild Root]

Boy, let me tell you when I was 16, I wanted to date but, not having a car was a big part why I didn’t. I tried to take a few young ladies out but, having a parent drive you to the movies isn’t a way to win a gals affection. Soon as I got my license, I was all set! But, I always had a hard time finding some one I wanted to take out… it seemed I’d have to be popular to take a girl out… then, when I discovered swing dancing, a new world opened up to me! I met my first girl friend after a swing dance… I was standing there with a friend dressed in a blue 40’s gab suit… I heard this young voice say: Nice suit! I turned around and there was this sweet young lady sitting on a bench with a friend all dressed in 40’s. We started talking, she liked just about everything I liked! So, we became friends instantly! After a few months of just hanging out and having fun, she met up with me after work one night… we drove back to my house and before I went into the house she told me that she really liked me… and needed to know if I could feel the same… I said yes… she then gave me my first kiss… ahhh, it was a very special time I’ll never forget! We dated for 3 or 4 months… it turned out that we weren’t as well matched for each other but, we stayed friends to this day.

Every young lady I’ve taken out seems to hid their feelings from me… it’s not that most girls I meet want to play games, it’s that they don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings. So, they’ll put off telling the guy that they’re not interested because of that. To that I say to all females: TELL US!!! WE CAN TAKE IT!

Women are funny, interesting and complex individuals! For instance, I was outside a Denny’s with some friends one night and I was standing there as our waitress was on her brake… caught my attention and asked me to marry her! She said that she gets off at 11pm and we could go to Vegas to get married! Wow, no gal has ever proposed to me before… I asked if we could get to know each other first… she said it was a 4 hour car ride to Vegas… I just laughed and said I was very flattered… I asked her if she asks a lot of guys this… she shook her head no… she said that she’d love me for ever… I asked her why she was in a dire need to get married… the word Green Card was in there some place… She then got up and ran back to the restaurant, she said I broke her heart but, she’d always love me.

So, I talked to a co-worker of hers and asked if she was serious… she said she was! I didn’t know what to say… well, I guess I’ll find out next time I’m at the Denny’s in Redlands! lol

For my self, I’m generally a straight shooter, if I like someone, I’ll let them know if I feel there’s a spark on the other side… but, I’m one who will share my feelings openly, I’m an adult, games and tricks are for kids.

=WR=