A Fedora Lounge Akubra Hat?

[Russ]

If there are banned subjects on any given forum, it's easy enough for members to set up a temporary forum elsewhere to discuss the issue. It takes a few minutes to set up, is free, and therefore doesn't require a sponsor (which is often the reason behind banned subjects in the first place). When the thread has run its course, you can simply abandon the free forum or keep it on ice until the next banned subject comes up.

http://www.jconserv.net/ is one free forum provider I have used.

 

[Stoney]

I think it's wise to wait before making any assumptions as to the motives of the Bartenders. We should trust that they are looking out for not only the forum's but our best interests as well. If it turns out otherwise, we can decide what to do at that time.

Patience my friends.....[huh]

BTW that makes 201 posts to this thread.

 

[MK]

.

This is an understandably exciting project. A hat that is unique and designed "just for us." I'm all for it.

But I also want us all to take a step back. Such things have been attempted -- and brought off successfully -- in the past here at The Fedora Lounge. But not in this way.

Say what you will, but I (and all the bartender staff) feel very strongly about making sure what happens here is all that we want it to be, and making sure that our membership is protected. We frankly see the potential for this thing to go off the rails in several ways. We have seen disasters happen at other forums due to such projects. Hurt feelings, unhappy people and a sour taste are not what we want for our people here, if we can take a role in avoiding it. Not to say that is how it WOULD go, but the potential is there. Enough for us to be concerned.

The way this has worked in the past is that a manufacturer who is a member of some standing will pitch an idea for something, get input, and make a prototype, then refine the whole thing and ready it for final offering. We favor this way of doing things as:

A. The process is contained within the membership.

B. Participants "in the middle" aren't needed. We feel that no individual member should be speaking for a third party manufacturer or retailer. As it stands right now, there isn't a vendor involved at all. If a vendor wishes to do a special run for us, then he/she can do so, but middle men don't need to do so on their behalf.

C. If things go awry, the blame trail is obvious and transparent.

D. We're all working with people we know and trust. We encourage all companies to get input from our members. We won't play favorites.

A special hat just for our members is a cool idea. But I'm uneasy about how this particular project is unfolding. Please bear with us and try to be patient. We hope the project will come to fruition, but it just needs to be done properly to protect our members and to make sure the manufacturer is clear on what our community is looking for.

In summary:

The Fedora Lounge will not be a venue for a project like this until a manufacturer or vendor (in this case, Akubra or Nungar) contacts me personally regarding wanting to cater to our members. Again, middle men don't need to do so on their behalf.

 

[Sator]

Gentlemen, it is indeed a great pity this thread has worked out the way it has.

I am not a "middle man", I am someone wanting to be able order a great hat for myself. I have no interest in this beyond that as I am physician by profession and not a hat vendor.

I know someone willing to custom order a hat from Akubra, who do not accept bespoke orders for single hats. I am also involved in a similar group order for a pair of boots through the London Lounge in a idea proposed by Manton.

http://thelondonlounge.net/gl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6770

Manton wanted to custom order a boot but the maker needed a minimum order number before agreeing to do it, so he started a group order on LL.

I was offered the unmissable oppurtunity to do the same thing with an Akubra hat. The offer to the FL of making this an 'official' project was meant to be a gesture of good will. When MK made it clear that this would tensions with sponsors, I tried to make it clear that this would be a project which is nothing more than a bunch of forumites getting together for a group order on a a hat.

That means:

1. No attempts to recreate the hat in the FL logo
2. No use of the FL logo
3. No use of the FL name on the hat
4. Not unique to the FL

I understand some guys have tried to get together for a group order to recreate vintage hats before. No objections were raised to this except the high minimum order made it difficult to proceed.

Of course, I would be only too pleased if MK or another representative from the FL wanted to make this an 'offical' project by contacting Steve from Nungar:

nungar@dragnet.com.au

Otherwise, if it is a new forum rule that group orders initiated by forum members are expressly forbidden on the FL then with the kind permission of the moderators here I might take this group order over to another forum. That would be a shame because the collective knowledge on hats is naturally greatest here.

 

[MK]

.

Sator, this for your protection as much as anyone. You were placing yourself at risk. We have seen these situations go very bad for the middle man. It is better for everyone for the vendor to step forward. Direct communication is best for all involved.

There is no reason that this hat can't be made.

 

[Stoney]

Thanks MK

That seems like a reasonable approach to me. If Steve of Nungar , or any other vendor(s) are interested in creating this hat, then they should contact you directly. I think I mentioned something like that much earlier.

I'm still very excited about this project and view it an a opportunity to raise competition among the vendors and improve the quaility and variety of production hats.

 

[Feraud]

Gentlemen, it is indeed a great pity this thread has worked out the way it has.

I see nothing to lament over regarding this thread. If any individual is interested in obtaining a great hat, there are ample resources to do so.
If a group of people are interested in doing a run of hats with a particular vendor, the opportunity is there.
The reservations expressed by Mk are reasonable enough.

 

[Mike in Seattle]

Gentlemen, it is indeed a great pity this thread has worked out the way it has.

I am not a "middle man", I am someone wanting to be able order a great hat for myself. I have no interest in this beyond that as I am physician by profession and not a hat vendor.

And indeed, isn't it far less a pity that it hadn't gotten to the point where you were financially "on the hook" for something and/or ill-will was created by your not being able to deliver the hats everyone had put so much time and thought into the creation of? That's exactly what MK was trying to point out and avoid.

Someone several posts backed mentioned Aaron recently trying to order special hats for Lounge members and why was that OK when a group of Loungers trying to have a custom "Lounge-styled" hat created was not? An excellent point that demonstrates exactly what MK was trying to get across.

Those are two completely different situations.

In the first example, a vendor, Aaron, was willing to buy and resell the special hats that some of the Loungers wanted. Aaron is a long-standing member of the Lounge. He's a hat dealer. He knows the business. He's the point of contact for Lounge members as well as the hat manufacturer as well as he's the one behind putting together the special deal.

But in this Lounge-designed Akubra case, a Lounger who isn't a hat dealer was going to talk to someone who is a hat dealer about seeing if a special hat could be commissioned from Akubra. So indeed, Sator, you would most definitely have been the middle-man on this deal. Everyone at the Lounge would tell you what they thought the hat should be, you would then be the one to relay that information to Nungar, and Nungar would respond back to you and you would then report back to the Loungers.

All MK was trying to say was if Nungar felt so strongly that this was a good idea and if it was something he was truly interested in pursuing (doing business with members of the Lounge for a special hat), why didn't he make the effort to he log in as a member, register as a vendor and proceed with the spear-heading the designing process, instead of leaving it all on your shoulders?

And that's not to say he still can't do precisely that...if he's really interested in doing business with the Loungers. MK has never forbidden said hat. He just wants the vendor to be at the helm of the process. The dealer's the one who can say, early on, this can't be done or that can't be done or I need at least x-number ordered in each size and color or whatever the criteria are before more time and thought are expended on unfeasible parts of the design process.

So I guess the question at hand is - where's Nungar? Why isn't he and hasn't he been any part of the on-going discussions. To me, it just seems like he's willing to let you do all the hard work and he'll reap all the benefits. Not a great position for you to be in, IMHO.

 

[jml90]

Ya know I love hypotheticals. So, let's say, hypothetically, if Akubra were to make a new hat what would we want in it?

I still don't see why a vendor has to be in on this.

 

[Sator]

Sator, this for your protection as much as anyone. You were placing yourself at risk. We have seen these situations go very bad for the middle man. It is better for everyone for the vendor to step forward. Direct communication is best for all involved.

There is no reason that this hat can't be made.

The trouble is that Steve is a part time seller. He is a full time farmer and will tell you he knows nothing about hats. There is a terrible drought in New South Wales and he has taken to selling Australiana on-line to alleviate things.

I have repeatedly tried to get Steve to participate in on-line forums before but because of time constraints (farming is a time consuming job) he is very reluctant. I have told him it would be good for his business etc etc - all to no avial. I doubt that he would be willing to spend a lot of time on-line to be involved in a project like this. If he is given clear instructions as to what to order from Akubra he says he will do it for us and has already made the requisite phone enquiries with Akubra.

I have helped to bring Nungar to the attention of other forums and as a result he has become a popular seller. So I have a good relationship with him. He, on the other hand, appreciates ideas from me, like this Akubra project - which are bound to sell well, as I am sure you will agree.

I am extremely puzzled as to what sort of things you are trying to "protect" me from.

Steve does NOT expect pre-payments for the hats from forum members. He does NOT expect anyone to supply credit card details, or deposits in advance of shipment. He will pay for the hats up front and then sell them through his website.

The worst thing that can happen is that we can come up with a lousy hat design, and have poor Steve stuck with a whole lot of hats he can't sell. That's why I wanted as many members involved with designing the hat as possible - to maximise the hat's appeal.

The reason I asked for a show of hands to see how many are interested is because the worst case scenario for me would be that I would feel personally responsible for Steve being stuck with a whole lot of unsellable hats.

Steve has faith in me that the ideas I come up with will sell - as they have done for him in the past. I really helped put him on the map as an on-line seller, so he trusts me. I do not want to betray that trust.

Sadly, I fear that the deep level of mistrust being expressed towards myself and Steve severely hampers this project from proceeding any further.

 

[Sator]

So I guess the question at hand is - where's Nungar? Why isn't he and hasn't he been any part of the on-going discussions. To me, it just seems like he's willing to let you do all the hard work and he'll reap all the benefits. Not a great position for you to be in, IMHO.

I didn't mind putting in the time. I thought it would be fun to custom order an Akubra hat.

However, I think all of the profound mistrust being directed to myself and Steve really has so far taken all of the fun out of it.

I think I will simply call this project off.

 

[Jerekson]

I had a feeling this wasn't going to work out.

Crap!

 

[AlanC]

Ya know I love hypotheticals. So, let's say, hypothetically, if Akubra were to make a new hat what would we want in it?

That seems like an excellent question...

 

[Sator]

Whatever the case, a hat with major forum involvement is off, as it is far too politically complex.

I would not entirely rule out the possibility that I might in future consider something like recreating the Stetson Whippet - perhaps even with Steve/Nungar. With the permission of the moderators I may start new threads asking about how one might go about getting a hatmaker to recreate the quality of vintage hats.

However, I will be unable to say whether it will result in forum members outside of Sydney being able to one day purchase such a historic recreation, as for all you know I may just commission a bespoke hatmaker to make a single hat for me, and not share the goodies with the rest of you. Such discussion will take place in a new thread, as this one has run its natural course.

 

[Stoney]

Whatever the case, a hat with major forum involvement is off, as it is far too politically complex.

Sator,

I for one appreciate the effort that you have put into this. You are the person who started this project, so if it runs to completion we have you to thank.

However, MK has made some valid points concerning responsability for the
entire process being handled by a vendor, rather than a lounge member.
There is nothing politically complex about this.

I really do not understand your attituide. If you wish for this project to go through, contact Steve and have him contact MK so they can work directly with each other on this thing. It is the only way this is going to happen, not only in this instance, but in any others down the road. The fact the Steve and MK would be working together on this project does not eliminate involvement from yourself or anyone else who wishes to contribute to the process.

Frankly, you are starting to remind me of the kid who always got mad and took the ball home, just to ensure that the rest of us could not play. Get over it and lets move on.

 

[Matt Deckard]

Point in frankness, there are several hatmakers here on the board who would be glad to recreate for you A Whippet or any other hat.

Talk to Art or Graham... They can duplicate it down to the last detail. If it's about recreating the quality of vintage felt, they are at the forefront of that mission and I believe already have the closest thing available on the market.

If you want to make a hat with Akubra and sell it as yours and yours alone an accept a vendor status that is another matter entirely.

The Lounge will not at this moment create or condone an official hat.

Show the custom hatters on this forum what you want and it will be made.

Whatever the case, a hat with major forum involvement is off, as it is far too politically complex.

I would not entirely rule out the possibility that I might in future consider something like recreating the Stetson Whippet - perhaps even with Steve/Nungar. With the permission of the moderators I may start new threads asking about how one might go about getting a hatmaker to recreate the quality of vintage hats.

However, I will be unable to say whether it will result in forum members outside of Sydney being able to one day purchase such a historic recreation, as for all you know I may just commission a bespoke hatmaker to make a single hat for me, and not share the goodies with the rest of you. Such discussion will take place in a new thread, as this one has run its natural course.

 

[Sator]

I really do not understand your attituide. If you wish for this project to go through, contact Steve and have him contact MK so they can work directly with each other on this thing. It is the only way this is going to happen, not only in this instance, but in any others down the road. The fact the Steve and MK would be working together on this project does not eliminate involvement from yourself or anyone else who wishes to contribute to the process.

Frankly, you are starting to remind me of the kid who always got mad and took the ball home, just to ensure that the rest of us could not play. Get over it and lets move on.

I am used to working with Steve. There seems to be this feeling that the project is highly likely to end in disappointment and that I would be blamed for it and it would cause much ill feeling. This sort of thing makes it very difficult for me.

Plus I got this feeling that people suspected I am some con artist trying to get people to give out credit card details and pay out deposits on a hat which would never materialise. Again, not a very inviting scenario.

Lastly, if all people wanted was for Steve to make a personal appearance on the forum, all one needed to was to ask me to phone him up to arrange this. Instead I got told: no middleman. I simply found that a bit disquieting.

If you look at it from my POV and you put yourself in my shoes, you will be able to see how it makes life rather uncomfortable.

 

[Sator]

Point in frankness, there are several hatmakers here on the board who would be glad to recreate for you A Whippet or any other hat.

Talk to Art or Graham... They can duplicate it down to the last detail. If it's about recreating the quality of vintage felt, they are at the forefront of that mission and I believe already have the closest thing available on the market.

If you want to make a hat with Akubra and sell it as yours and yours alone an accept a vendor status that is another matter entirely.

The Lounge will not at this moment create or condone an official hat.

Show the custom hatters on this forum what you want and it will be made.

Thank you for your advice, Matt. However, as I am located in Australia, I would prefer to try to stick to local hatmakers.

I am a physician by profession and have no plans to give that up to sell hats.

The suggestion for a forum hat was always just that - a suggestion. If you ever revisit the idea yourself, I wish you the best of luck, as I can see that logistically, it is a far more complex task than I ever could have forseen (in retrospect rather naively so).

However, as you can see, the interest is there. And in so far as we got to discuss it and understand the profound difficulties it might involve, I think this thread was worthwhile.

 

[Matt Deckard]

It has been done before. Whether it be the Indy hat made by Akubra or the Bogart hat made by Graham... hatters make what the market wants.

Anywho... i hope you find someone good in your parts.

 

[scotrace]

One further point, Sator. You are a new member among nearly 5,000. We, as a group, have covered this ground and know where the bodies are buried. In terms of recreating Whippets, or Flagships, or Stratoliners, or Open Roads, et al, members here have already discussed this, and done it, repeatedly. If you want to find some of this stuff out, and what has been discussed, learned and discovered, you'll find a wealth of information in a board search.
No one is calling you dishonest in any way. No sponsor here has protested the project to anyone in any way. The project, as it was unfolding, would indeed have created problems for you. I fully understand your willingness to shoulder them, but I would ask you to trust the experience of numerous long-time forum members who do know hats and hat making, and could quickly see ten reasons why this wasn't going to work in this way. If I came to your office and began guessing at probable causes for illness among your patients, you would see plenty of impending disasters, without questioning my integrity or honesty, and try to steer me onto a better path.
You're welcome here - very much so. I think you have a lot to contribute. Please don't feel you have been slighted or shunned or anything of the sort. Please do try and stick around, read a bit, and discover how The Fedora Lounge works. We are a huge and excellent resource.
You may want to refrain from beginning any more sentences with "Sadly..."