A-2, part two. Time to go shopping.

[aswatland]

My only point was that I think it's funny that we pay a premium for a hide that the Army sourced because it was cheap. The Navy made the quality purchase, which we don't favor because it's not historically accurate, and because it's now cheaper, which we perceive as less quality.

I think the owners of the original A-2s might have preferred goat.

Just speculation.

The US Materiel Division placed orders for the USAAF for a total of three quarters of a million A2s in the War. Some contracts were for 50,000 jackets. The original A2 spec from 1931 (spec 12015) was for horse hide because under testing it had the durable qualities required for what was essentially a work garment. Price was quite high on the list of considerations but not the determining factor, supply was. In November 1940 the Materiel Division allowed cow hide to be used and from March 1941 goatskin was used in large quantities, much of it imported from India. Quite simply the demand for A2s for the USAAF resulted in cow and goat being used in order for contractors to fulfil contracts.

I don't understand your comments about the navy and historical accuracy. All naval summer leather flight jackets were made from goatskin which was more durable than horse hide or cow hide. So what is historically inaccurate about using it today? BTW vintage goat skin does have character, but does take far longer to break in than horse or cow hide.

The owners of USAAF issued A2 were just grateful for a comfortable, practical flight jacket and there is no evidence to my knowledge that they might have preferred goat. If you are seeking a new top end repro A2 I would recommend Good Wear Leather, Diamond Clothing, Eastman Leather Clothing or Bill Kelso. Alternatively you could buy a decent second hand jacket on Ebay or via an internet forum or FB group.

 

[aswatland]

Sloan1874
There is no reason to be angry. I just wanted to show my jacket.

I agree with Craig. English is the common language used here to communicate with the vast majority of members.

 

[Sloan1874]

I'm not angry, we're always glad to see new jackets, it's just a matter of good form. It would be like standing with a group of people all speaking in English and then turning to your mate and speaking to them loudly in a language no one else understands about the people you're with - Holly is a Lounge member, as is her brother, Denny. Anyway, apologies for the thread derail, carry on.

 

[Banzai]

I don't understand your comments about the navy and historical accuracy. All naval summer leather flight jackets were made from goatskin which was more durable than horse hide or cow hide. So what is historically inaccurate about using it today? BTW vintage goat skin does have character, but does take far longer to break in than horse

Clearly.

We're saying the same thing, you just aren't making the jump to mild amusement.

I'll re-phrase.

1930s: Horse cheaper, goat easier to wear and more durable. Army chooses horse, Navy chooses goat.

Now: Horse more expensive, goat cheaper but easier to wear and more durable. But we spend a mint to mimic what was once the lower budget option.

It was just a funny thought that I was pondering. I didn't say anything about historical inaccuracies regarding goat Navy jackets. You didn't read carefully.

 

[aswatland]

Clearly.

We're saying the same thing, you just aren't making the jump to mild amusement.

I'll re-phrase.

1930s: Horse cheaper, goat easier to wear and more durable. Army chooses horse, Navy chooses goat.

Now: Horse more expensive, goat cheaper but easier to wear and more durable. But we spend a mint to mimic what was once the lower budget option.

It was just a funny thought that I was pondering. I didn't say anything about historical inaccuracies regarding goat Navy jackets. You didn't read carefully.

I am presenting a historical view of the A2 and yes I did read your post very closely. Perhaps you should read my post carefully and refrain from making generalisations about the leather chosen by the Army. Actually the Army did not chose the leather at all. The US government's Materiel Division did this. Horse, cow and goat were all used.

 

[Ralph_Phillips]

I'm not after a stitch-by-stitch repro. Just a superior product to what I was issued, and one that doesn't have velcro stitched to it.

I like the US Authentic jackets. And G&B. I don't have a strong interest in playing WW2 re-enactor. I'm a Viper driver, not a P-51 driver. (Though what I would give for a flight in one of those... )

In other words, I feel like I have enough ramp-cred to not feel compelled to do WW2 cosplay. No offense to those who are collectors, and really in to the repros. I just want a good jacket that fits well.

I like the very classic look of the A-1, but in my head I imagine those buttons being a royal PITA every time I transition between indoors and out.

I bet the button up knit collar is decently warm, probably warmer than an A-2 when the temperatures dip.

G&B from what I understand is not inclined to do any customization of their jackets even though they'll do any alterations you want on a flight suit. That may be an issue if you want an A-2 with custom interior pockets or anything else different than the stock item.

Also if just looking for one better than issued, the Cockpit ones as made for the civilian market are actually pretty good if one is available in a size that fits you. They won't customize anything either though without charging two arms, both legs, etc. The only real downside of the civilian market Cockpit A2's is cosmetic, their seal brown color is practically black.

 

[Marv]

I'm a fan of both the A2 and the G1 but I do prefer horse/cow for A2s and goat from G1/M422a

Here's a couple of photos of my ELC Rough Wear 27752 A2 and 55J14 G1...

 

[Roma]

I'm a fan of both the A2 and the G1 but I do prefer horse/cow for A2s and goat from G1/M422a

Here's a couple of photos of my ELC Rough Wear 27752 A2 and 55J14 G1...

Either one is great.

 

[AdeeC]

For my two bobs worth. The Aero Jerky Russet horsehide is about the most authentic looking WW2 A2 leather IMO if that is what one is after. The leather used for most high end manufacturers A2's just looks and feels too luxurious. There is a conundrum there.

 

[Sloan1874]

There is a conundrum there.

The sort that starts arguments on the VLJ that end in duels.

 

[Fanch]

I am particularly partial to the look of your G-1. Do you favor one over the other?

 

[Ralph_Phillips]

For my two bobs worth. The Aero Jerky Russet horsehide is about the most authentic looking WW2 A2 leather IMO if that is what one is after. The leather used for most high end manufacturers A2's just looks and feels too luxurious. There is a conundrum there.

I haven't seen that one you mentioned but you are indeed correct regarding most of the upper end flight jackets. They seem to have gone upscale with the whole "soft luxurious leather" thing more suited to an upscale gigolo in Rome. No offense intended toward European gigolos, but the cultured cosmopolitan thing just ain't right for a flight jacket.

 

[highhope]

Clearly.

We're saying the same thing, you just aren't making the jump to mild amusement.

Well put - instead of going for the FQHH A2 this time, how about trying our new GSOH A2?

 

[Banzai]

Well put - instead of going for the FQHH A2 this time, how about trying our new GSOH A2?

Just out of curiosity; who are you when you say "our"?

 

[highhope]

Just out of curiosity; who are you when you say "our"?

Just meant I liked your original comment - wish others had a better sense of humour or even a lighter tone when it comes to jackets!!

 

[Banzai]

Gotcha. I thought for a second you might be a vendor rep.

 

[highhope]

Gotcha. I thought for a second you might be a vendor rep.

Not me - GSOH A2's are getting hard to find...but I suppose that's the case with any hobby where there's a danger of becoming too obsessive.

Back to the original post, if it were me - I'd give goat a go. As a fellow flyer, in the confines of a tight cockpit, goat is much more flexible. Doesn't pick up scrapes and scars as well as horsehide (as others have said) but it's all dependant on what you want. To me, a good flying jacket is a logbook without all the tip ex and pen. Every scrape and scar has a story - that's the real essence of an A2, not in the stitch patterns but the blokes their stories.

 

[Banzai]

Really thinking about it. I hesitate just because my only experience is with the sad stuff they issue now...which we can't fly with anyway.

But I would not go out of my way to buy the jacket I was issued.

 

[Ralph_Phillips]

Really thinking about it. I hesitate just because my only experience is with the sad stuff they issue now...which we can't fly with anyway.

But I would not go out of my way to buy the jacket I was issued.

One reason for the lower quality of the government issue item is the "100% made in USA with USA materials" requirement (not certain if it's actually 100%) on certain things, and most American goats are pretty ratty compared to some of the foreign goats. If you buy the "identical" over the counter retail items from the same maker, they can be a lot better because they can use materials from anywhere on earth.

Same thing has happened before with American made requirements on certain things... ie, when NASA chose Omega Speedmasters, an American watchmaker complained and then it suddenly had to contain a high percentage of American made parts. So Omega agreed to have the watch cases made in the USA. Compared to the Swiss made cases, the American made cases looked like they had the markings hammered in by Fred Flintstone.

 

[AdeeC]

I haven't seen that one you mentioned but you are indeed correct regarding most of the upper end flight jackets. They seem to have gone upscale with the whole "soft luxurious leather" thing more suited to an upscale gigolo in Rome. No offense intended toward European gigolos, but the cultured cosmopolitan thing just ain't right for a flight jacket.

I do have an A2 jacket from one of the high end makers. Quality and workmanship A+. Accuracy bar choice of leather likely A+. Could I imagine myself wearing one in 1943? Not really. At risk of being arrested as an Axis spy.