A-2 colors

[2jakes]

Something ingrained to me by my parents who thought wearing black looked too fascist and bad luck. Several of my relatives were fascists including my grandfather and they met brutal ends. A personal thing and nothing against anyone wearing black or dislike of the colour. Justt makes me feel uncomfortable.

It's very difficult to not feel uncomfortable when parents are concerned. I just got back from the dentist & it was sheer
torture. Parents can do that when you are young & using that as a threat.

To Mr. Seb Lucas; do you have photos of your black jackets ?

Thanks !

 

[Seb Lucas]

Something ingrained in me by my parents who thought wearing black looked too fascist and bad luck. Several of my relatives were fascists including my grandfather and they met brutal ends. A personal thing and nothing against anyone wearing black or dislike of the colour. Just makes me feel uncomfortable.

Ah... I see how that could work. My parents (who had survived the war against the fascists) always said wearing black made people look old. Maybe 30 years ago. Now it doesn't matter.

 

[Seb Lucas]

To Mr. Seb Lucas; do you have photos of your black jackets ?

Thanks !

Not really. I've posted a black cafe racer here. I tend to wear back clothing not necessarily the jackets.

 

[Edward]

I think I was into leather jackets for about fifteen years before I decided there were colours other than black after all.... sbout the same time when I realised there were designs other than the Perfecto.... Still love a good black.

Remember that the U.S. military was much less unified in those days than today and procurement would have been a much less organized thing.

There are different shades of black, too.

Aren't there just! Anyone who's ever tried to have a vintage car resprayed will know that. As I recall, Austin black has a definite blue undertone, while Ford black has a red undertone. Otheres have a brown hint, while still others will be black-black. Get the wrong one and it'll be even more glaring than if you'd painted that new door yellow... And that's only paint on steel. Once you start to dye different fabrics or hides.... yeesh.

It's interesting, though, that the US Military shifted from brown to black for leather belts and boots and such in the late 50s. I wodner why they did that; it was clearly a conscious choice. Maybe it was cheaper, or more uniform? Then there's also the fact that black leather boots can be polished to a higher perceptible shine than brown - maybe it was all part of the boot-bulling approach to discipline....

Seal seems to travel from mid-to-dark brown all the way down to 'One-step-from-black'. Russets seem to be much more standardised from the examples I've seen.

The first time I saw The Great Escape, I thought Hilt's A2 (probably the first A2 I'd ever seen, unless you count the civilian version Dwight Schulz wore in The A Team) was black. Certainly looked it in some lights.

Here is the problem.

Seal:
View attachment 30292

Seal:
View attachment 30293

:eusa_clap

ARR! ARR! ARR!

Well, the USN jackets were darker in color to begin with, so I think that made for less fluctuation and more simplicity in color matching, though I've certainly seen enough shift in dye lots within USN jackets, but they are all in the mid-range to dark range of brown. Also, in the specs. for M-422, M422A, AN6552, AN-J-3 and AN-J-3A, the color is called "chocolate brown." Perhaps this defining color term was less ambiguous absent color swatches, unless we get quite philosophical and ask if they meant dark or milk chocolate, Godiva or Ghiradelli, with or without peanuts?

How many USN pilots were there, by comparison? Did the USN only put out fighter planes - with one man per plane - or did they have bombers where every plane had a seven man crew? If they had a smaller flying force, procurement might not have been such an issue, making uniformity easier. The main variation I've seen with them was the colour of the mouton on the collar; knits as well as hide seemed fairly uniform.

 

[HPA Rep]

Wow!
Some great replies! Thanks all! Special thanks to HPA Rep!

So, let me check I got this straight;

1. Wartime variations were caused by wartime imperatives (I think no arguments on that one).
2. Pre-war A-2's show a much greater degree of color standardization.
3. The original contracts specified 'seal brown', and had swatches to ensure manufacturers understood the color.
4. What we now understand as 'russet' and 'seal brown' are modern terms used so that we can distinguish between the wild color variations seen on original wartime jackets (in exactly the same way people talk about 'redskin' fleece jackets).

Somewhere there may be surviving swatches of the original seal brown that was sent out with contracts.
Wouldn't that be a find!

You're most welcome! And you are correct, Big J, except to be totally precise, russet and seal brown aren't modern terms in the same way "redskin" is; russet and seal brown are period-correct military terms but applied in a manner within the collecting/enthusiast community today consistent with how "redskin" is used when referencing reddish (russet brown), hand-dyed sheepskins used to construct items of flying apparel.

 

[HPA Rep]

Thanks Big J;

My only question with regards to the original A2 jackets back then....
What happened to when folks took pride in producing a good product &
didn't take years to finish ?

I have seen films from the 20s,30s to 40s. Most films were hollywood made, some documentaries like the
original "Memphis Belle"were not.

The jackets which were new back in those years...look very easy on the wear & not heavy
or stiff looking like todays and didn't require break-in period.
Giving my choice, I'd rather take a jacket made back then with all the shoddily work over a
repro today.

The observation you've made with respect to the A-2s of the period being less heavy than repros today is something I've taken issue with very vocally. Suppleness of hides, to an extent, did vary, especially in wartime production, so I wouldn't say all vintage A-2s when new didn't have some level of stiffness and didn't experience a break-in period, but I would say that many, perhaps even most vintage A-2s were more supple than what is offered today by top makers and that vintage A-2s weighed less, often considerably less, than what is offered by top makers today.

I don't know fully why we have this type of disparity between vintage A-2s and current repro jackets, because even when the hide thickness is very accurately matched by the repro maker, the weight is still greater than most vintage A-2s. The horsehide Eastman used before going to the current WarHorse in 2011 had extremely well-matched weight to that found on vintage A-2s but it lacked the character of grain structure found on many vintage A-2s; I have a 2007 ELC A-2 that is my fave to wear for the very reason that it feels so much like I'm wearing a vintage A-2. The WarHorse was improved following 2011 and the weight remains much closer to vintage jackets (and the thickness) now, but it's still about 3 ounces heavier than what is typical, while the stiffness is minimal and break-in periods greatly reduced. There is always a batch of skins that come in that are at the far end of the scale, but those are exceptions and not the rule.

But I haven't seen any high-end maker capture the weight and overall suppleness of a typical wartime A-2 with full precision, and some new makers are running close to a pound more on their A-2s above the weight of a vintage counterpart. Since a repro is just that, it may be one of those things we must accept that will only ever get so close to being like a vintage example; repros may never be clones! Clearly, the dye types used today will never match vintage examples precisely due to environmental laws banning chemicals employed back in the day, and much the same applies to tanning leather.

I make no bones about it that vintage jackets were never aniline dyed. Vintage A-2s may appear to be aniline dyed to some but appearances are not just deceiving, they defy logic and close scrutiny. Aniline is a process that would never have been used because of the expense involved, plus it offers none of properties that the dyes were specified to provide - protection from moisture, grease, oil, etc. Aniline is used today both because some makers think it was and, the main reason it's used is because it does offer a product that when worn will yield a look closer than the pigment dyes will provide vis-à-vis the appearance of vintage jackets, so the primary reason it's used today is because it looks the most authentic, and because it looks more correct, some also think it was used in original production.

I fully support the use of aniline dyes today because they do make for a more authentic-looking leather; the pigment dying today just cannot compare to what was employed 70 years ago, thus leathers so dyed today just look too artificial. Some things that can be found in the archival repositories still are documents that describe what the leather being supplied was with respect to weight, thickness, tanning, dyeing, etc., plus there are a good number of cases where the actual sample cuttings of the leather are still attached to related correspondence - there's nothing anywhere that describes aniline dye and/or the related process, but processes consistent with pigment dyeing and the requirement for the dye on the leather are expressly discussed between tanneries and the USAC, and the sample cuttings are definitely not aniline dyed. This is the result of my years of research.

 

[Stearmen]

I can agree with that, my Dubow A2 is dreadful quality but has time honoured pedigree and age. They were there and repro's were not. Repro's have to value add to compensate. Personally I am not a fan of black. All my jackets are browns of sorts. Black jackets look good but I am superstitious about the colour.

Yes, I agree! My Perry Sportswear goatskin A2, is a nice shade of red, and it would never pass muster with the thread counters we have today! But, like you said, it's the real deal and flew the missions over Europe, can't replicate that!

 

[Walter Neff1940]

Here is my United Sheeplined Clothing Company A-2. Belonged to a P-51 pilot and then later when in the CBI.

 

[Stearmen]

How many USN pilots were there, by comparison? Did the USN only put out fighter planes - with one man per plane - or did they have bombers where every plane had a seven man crew? If they had a smaller flying force, procurement might not have been such an issue, making uniformity easier. The main variation I've seen with them was the colour of the mouton on the collar; knits as well as hide seemed fairly uniform.

Actually, most of the planes flown by the USN during WWII had two or more on board. The PV2 Harpoon I flew copilot on, would have six or more, and that was a medium bomber. The PB4Y Liberator could have 12 or more, same with the good old PBY Catalina.

 

[Stearmen]

The observation you've made with respect to the A-2s of the period being less heavy than repros today is something I've taken issue with very vocally. Suppleness of hides, to an extent, did vary, especially in wartime production, so I wouldn't say all vintage A-2s when new didn't have some level of stiffness and didn't experience a break-in period, but I would say that many, perhaps even most vintage A-2s were more supple than what is offered today by top makers and that vintage A-2s weighed less, often considerably less, than what is offered by top makers today.

I don't know fully why we have this type of disparity between vintage A-2s and current repro jackets, because even when the hide thickness is very accurately matched by the repro maker, the weight is still greater than most vintage A-2s. The horsehide Eastman used before going to the current WarHorse in 2011 had extremely well-matched weight to that found on vintage A-2s but it lacked the character of grain structure found on many vintage A-2s; I have a 2007 ELC A-2 that is my fave to wear for the very reason that it feels so much like I'm wearing a vintage A-2. The WarHorse was improved following 2011 and the weight remains much closer to vintage jackets (and the thickness) now, but it's still about 3 ounces heavier than what is typical, while the stiffness is minimal and break-in periods greatly reduced. There is always a batch of skins that come in that are at the far end of the scale, but those are exceptions and not the rule.

But I haven't seen any high-end maker capture the weight and overall suppleness of a typical wartime A-2 with full precision, and some new makers are running close to a pound more on their A-2s above the weight of a vintage counterpart. Since a repro is just that, it may be one of those things we must accept that will only ever get so close to being like a vintage example; repros may never be clones! Clearly, the dye types used today will never match vintage examples precisely due to environmental laws banning chemicals employed back in the day, and much the same applies to tanning leather.

I make no bones about it that vintage jackets were never aniline dyed. Vintage A-2s may appear to be aniline dyed to some but appearances are not just deceiving, they defy logic and close scrutiny. Aniline is a process that would never have been used because of the expense involved, plus it offers none of properties that the dyes were specified to provide - protection from moisture, grease, oil, etc. Aniline is used today both because some makers think it was and, the main reason it's used is because it does offer a product that when worn will yield a look closer than the pigment dyes will provide vis-à-vis the appearance of vintage jackets, so the primary reason it's used today is because it looks the most authentic, and because it looks more correct, some also think it was used in original production.

I fully support the use of aniline dyes today because they do make for a more authentic-looking leather; the pigment dying today just cannot compare to what was employed 70 years ago, thus leathers so dyed today just look too artificial. Some things that can be found in the archival repositories still are documents that describe what the leather being supplied was with respect to weight, thickness, tanning, dyeing, etc., plus there are a good number of cases where the actual sample cuttings of the leather are still attached to related correspondence - there's nothing anywhere that describes aniline dye and/or the related process, but processes consistent with pigment dyeing and the requirement for the dye on the leather are expressly discussed between tanneries and the USAC, and the sample cuttings are definitely not aniline dyed. This is the result of my years of research.

How much is the lighter weight due to the jacket drying out over 70 years?

 

[Sloan1874]

I have an original Cable A-2 that's been stripped of the majority of its original colour, apart from under the collar and other protected areas, and it's very similar to a modern mid-brown, certainly not russet or what I would describe as seal.

 

[AdeeC]

This is a web photo of my Dubow which I bought from a member of VLJ. Photo taken by a previous owner. It retains original colour and is very similar to the current Aero russet HH.

[

ATTACH=CONFIG]30426[/ATTACH]

 

[Sloan1874]

Beautiful stuff. Great patch too.

 

[AdeeC]

Beautiful stuff. Great patch too.

Thanks, this was a great find for me. The patch is the B17 nose art of DAME SATAN II which was active during 1943/44 in Europe. A lucky bomber that survived to retire "war weary" and did not lose a crew member though being badly shot up a couple of times. I have crew and plane photos, the name and photo of the original owner who was a waist gunner and flew at least 18 of his missions in this plane. He signed for another tour and became POW later in the war.

 

[HPA Rep]

How much is the lighter weight due to the jacket drying out over 70 years?

Marginal to none. The weight evaluations performed for bomber crews in the ETO dated 1943 (to determine where weight could be saved to increase plane load and speed) list the weight of all of the clothing and gear (the clothing tested was in size 38) and this reflects A-2 weight that is spot on to the range I have seen with the many jackets I've weighed. I've weighed jackets that are like new and so supple you could roll them in a little ball and some that were certainly a bit dry, and there really is no significant difference. There may be something different today in the vegetable tanning that creatures this noted difference, such as more moisture, but vintage A-2s that would have been relatively new at the time of the study (and I'm sure there were studies done before and after this one), reflect weights of A-2s that are absolutely lighter.

You could also determine the weight back in the 1940s by the the archival data on hide weights and knowing how many square feet of leather are used to make a certain size, then adding in wool knit, zippers, snaps, clips, and cotton lining.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I've found and read that utility jackets of the period were much lighter than the FQHH or thick steer so commonly used today. Thoughts?

 

[Sloan1874]

Thanks, this was a great find for me. The patch is the B17 nose art of DAME SATAN II which was active during 1943/44 in Europe. A lucky bomber that survived to retire "war weary" and did not lose a crew member though being badly shot up a couple of times. I have crew and plane photos, the name and photo of the original owner who was a waist gunner and flew at least 18 of his missions in this plane. He signed for another tour and became POW later in the war.

A true artefact of the period then. Fantastic.

 

[Stearmen]

Marginal to none. The weight evaluations performed for bomber crews in the ETO dated 1943 (to determine where weight could be saved to increase plane load and speed) list the weight of all of the clothing and gear (the clothing tested was in size 38) and this reflects A-2 weight that is spot on to the range I have seen with the many jackets I've weighed. I've weighed jackets that are like new and so supple you could roll them in a little ball and some that were certainly a bit dry, and there really is no significant difference. There may be something different today in the vegetable tanning that creatures this noted difference, such as more moisture, but vintage A-2s that would have been relatively new at the time of the study (and I'm sure there were studies done before and after this one), reflect weights of A-2s that are absolutely lighter.

You could also determine the weight back in the 1940s by the the archival data on hide weights and knowing how many square feet of leather are used to make a certain size, then adding in wool knit, zippers, snaps, clips, and cotton lining.

Interesting! I wonder if people today, just equate quality with heavy weight? I am sure, back in the depression and WWII, men were just glad to have a jacket.

 

[2jakes]

The observation you've made with respect to the A-2s of the period being less heavy than repros today is something I've taken issue with very vocally. Suppleness of hides, to an extent, did vary, especially in wartime production, so I wouldn't say all vintage A-2s when new didn't have some level of stiffness and didn't experience a break-in period, but I would say that many, perhaps even most vintage A-2s were more supple than what is offered today by top makers and that vintage A-2s weighed less, often considerably less, than what is offered by top makers today.

I don't know fully why we have this type of disparity between vintage A-2s and current repro jackets, because even when the hide thickness is very accurately matched by the repro maker, the weight is still greater than most vintage A-2s...

Perhaps another aspect being the "hormone-fed" diet of today that makes for a lower quality of hides
that was not prevalent in the "good old days" when products were grown naturally with no fast-processing chemical.

 

[Juanito]

I make no bones about it that vintage jackets were never aniline dyed. Vintage A-2s may appear to be aniline dyed to some but appearances are not just deceiving, they defy logic and close scrutiny. Aniline is a process that would never have been used because of the expense involved, plus it offers none of properties that the dyes were specified to provide - protection from moisture, grease, oil, etc. Aniline is used today both because some makers think it was and, the main reason it's used is because it does offer a product that when worn will yield a look closer than the pigment dyes will provide vis-à-vis the appearance of vintage jackets, so the primary reason it's used today is because it looks the most authentic, and because it looks more correct, some also think it was used in original production.

Hear, hear! My primary criticism or dissatisfaction with many reproduction jackets vs. originals--the finish is just not the same and consequently, neither is performance, particularly in the rain.