“An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” ~ John F. Kennedy

[dudewuttheheck]

My thoughts are pretty in line with what @navetsea has said, but perhaps more extreme.

If the jacket gets to me, that means it has already passed QC and whoever is sending it to me feel that the product is worthy of a customer. Therefore, if there is an issue with the product (jacket or otherwise), I will absolutely make sure to talk about it. Will I also contact the maker and see if they will fix it? Yes, I will do that as well depending on how serious the issue is. Whatever happens will be documented as well.

Keep in mind that I do run my own little blog/review website so in my mind, I see myself as a very serious hobbyist/reviewer. To me, that means that I should first and foremost favor other hobbyists/consumers/weirdos like myself over any maker. Sure, it's more kind to the maker to contact them first without letting anyone else know the issues, but I think a flaw is thinking only about being kind to the maker. To me, I feel a greater moral obligation to other consumers than I do to the makers, even if I do get along with them or if I'm even friends with them.

Therefore, I absolutely write about all the flaws in an initial item that I receive. If I contact the maker, I also document how that process goes as well whether it goes well or goes poorly because the customer service aspect is also extremely important for people to know about. If the maker handles the situation well, then to me that speaks volumes. I think that is perfectly fair.

It actually bothers me when supposed "reviewers" favor the maker over the consumer because there is money involved. There are "review" sites that have been mentioned on this forum that do this and I cannot stand it. They are promotion sites, not review sites when they cross that line. You might say that I feel quite strongly on this subject because I do. Fellow consumers ALWAYS come before the maker/brand in my eyes.

 

[navetsea]

This thread reminds me of the old VO5 hair shampoo commercial, immortalized by Wayne and Garth.
When I studied marketing many moons ago, before the interweb changed everything, there was an old axiom- If you’re dissatisfied you’ll tell 12 times more people that if you’re satisfied.
Or another axiom we used in our business- the customer may not always be right, but he’s always the customer.
My take on this question.... If you’re pissed enough to want something done about the error or mistake, talk to the manufacturer first.
If it’s a “meh, shit happens” then it’s fair to let others know in the interest of knowledge.

yep totally agree to this, when you want to resolve the problem then you go to the maker first,
but if you decided it doesn't worth the potential debate, the sending back and forth, or not even sure the outcome would even be better when apparently done in unhappier mood. it's different with broken stitch, or other minor detail that totally easily fixable the maker don't mind to fix quickly, or just a perfectly fine jacket with a wrong size which is totally their fault and unwearable to you, and only proper for them to remake and sell the wrong size jacket on their outlet ( to me more proper than trying to partially fix a wrong size jacket which will almost always ruin the proportion of the jacket elements)

 

[Seb Lucas]

I

My thoughts are pretty in line with what @navetsea has said, but perhaps more extreme.

If the jacket gets to me, that means it has already passed QC and whoever is sending it to me feel that the product is worthy of a customer. Therefore, if there is an issue with the product (jacket or otherwise), I will absolutely make sure to talk about it. Will I also contact the maker and see if they will fix it? Yes, I will do that as well depending on how serious the issue is. Whatever happens will be documented as well.

Keep in mind that I do run my own little blog/review website so in my mind, I see myself as a very serious hobbyist/reviewer. To me, that means that I should first and foremost favor other hobbyists/consumers/weirdos like myself over any maker. Sure, it's more kind to the maker to contact them first without letting anyone else know the issues, but I think a flaw is thinking only about being kind to the maker. To me, I feel a greater moral obligation to other consumers than I do to the makers, even if I do get along with them or if I'm even friends with them.

Therefore, I absolutely write about all the flaws in an initial item that I receive. If I contact the maker, I also document how that process goes as well whether it goes well or goes poorly because the customer service aspect is also extremely important for people to know about. If the maker handles the situation well, then to me that speaks volumes. I think that is perfectly fair.

It actually bothers me when supposed "reviewers" favor the maker over the consumer because there is money involved. There are "review" sites that have been mentioned on this forum that do this and I cannot stand it. They are promotion sites, not review sites when they cross that line. You might say that I feel quite strongly on this subject because I do. Fellow consumers ALWAYS come before the maker/brand in my eyes.

That's critical Dude. In the review community it's getting harder to tell who is a shill and who is legit. We live in a saturated world of phoney product 'reviews' - this era's slightly more cunning marketing strategies. People buy things based on a tissue of lies.

In relation to jacket flaws. I think any response from the buyer is legitimate at any time in the life cycle of the product as long as language used is fair (not abusive or deceptive). Go to the maker, go on line and comment, tell your friends... Once a product is sold it is has its own life and a story to tell.

 

[navetsea]

This is an excellent post and one that's very important. The part about not knowing what makes a good jacket right away is crucial.
Many people will not spend so much time going through countless jackets to figure out what's what and that's okay. Many people wouldn't be able to tell the difference even if they did, as evidenced by a lot of posts on TFL and that's perfectly fine too. Which is why many people buy into the hype and many people fall for it and that's precisely why being critical about certain makers that are held on a pedestal of Gods - Status Aero was enjoying for years on TFL - is absolutely crucial.
Anyway, regardless of what I'm buying, I want to get the best deal for my money. Without guys like you, all I'd have to base my decision on is hype and marketing. And I don't want to be had. Let me make up my own mind and weigh the cons vs. pros.

Himel has a lot going on without the perfect stitching & given a choice, I personally would much rather own anything by them than by FCL, Addict, etc. But I want to be able to make up my mind on my own & not because the owner of the company is telling me their stuff is the best.

Remember Diamond Dave? His stuff was regarded as the Second coming and I'm fairly certain Carlos' review and subsequent discussion was a deciding factor in putting an end to that. Rightfully so because while I never owned a DD jacket, I could plainly see that guy's peddling badly made junk. Many of his jackets were amateur hour & to this day, I cannot understand what the hell was it that generated all that hype. Carlos got jackets with holes. That other dude got a jacket he can't freaking zip up all the way, even after the initial zipper fell apart!

Well, okay, where am I going with this? I don't know but I do know this post is important.

The point is, we all learn. Same as we learned there are better makers out there than H&M, through time and experience, Carlos learned there are better makers out there than Himel.

but the only member left here alive with one perfectly faded jacket was wearing a DD if I remember correctly. maybe making peace, wearing and loving a flawed diamond is the key to left this place and enjoy life without looking back, if you wear your flawed jacket for a year, and collecting characters, creases and fading, then probably by the end of the year your bond to that one object is already so strong, all wobbly line, wonky zipper tape are long forgiven (as long as it zips lol) buried under all the characters you've been collecting on it.

 

[El Marro]

but the only member left here alive with one perfectly faded jacket was wearing a DD if I remember correctly. maybe making peace, wearing and loving a flawed diamond is the key to left this place and enjoy life without looking back, if you wear your flawed jacket for a year, and collecting characters, creases and fading, then probably by the end of the year your bond to that one object is already so strong, all wobbly line, wonky zipper tape are long forgiven (as long as it zips lol) buried under all the characters you've been collecting on it.

I was thinking the same thing, good old @A-1 and his DD Buco. The jacket couldn’t have been that badly put together if it stood up to everything he threw at it.
My own DD A-2 has not seen nearly as much wear but it is a well-made jacket and one I like to wear from time to time.

 

[navetsea]

on the otherhand this forum would be dead if everyone achieving nirvana... so no A-1 is a bad example, wonky stitches are bad let's continue talk about it and discuss the best leather ever, keep the forum alive

I hear somewhere if you just keep brushing the jacket with a yak brush, the mistakes will disappear?

 

[zebedee]

I'll contact the manufacturer first. I've found that this has usually worked well- if there's no joy there, I'll warn others. I'm also the same with most service providers.

 

[jeo]

...I am not suggesting an absolute obligation or a moral imperative. Rather, I am asking about etiquette and fairness to the manufacturer...

As a business owner, I 1000% agree to bring it up with the manufacturer first. Let them make it right before airing grievances out to the world. There is always a time and place for that if the manufacturer doesn't do the right thing.

I completely understand where some are coming from when they say that a faulty product should never reach the customer, but we're all human and we all make mistakes.

The title of the post is apt. If the error becomes a mistake because a manufacturer refuses to correct it, then it is on the customer to decide what they want to do and at that point, anything and everything is fair game.

...Remember Diamond Dave? His stuff was regarded as the Second coming and I'm fairly certain Carlos' review and subsequent discussion was a deciding factor in putting an end to that...

And this ^ is the reason why I say let the manufacturer make it right first before anything else.

I'm not sure if one or two reviews on the internet effectively put a guy out of business, but I most certainly do not see any new DD jackets anymore. (Is he still around?)

So I wouldn't want to do anything that will ruin someone's business or take food off their table if it isn't absolutely necessary.

Maybe it's because I love leather jackets so much or maybe it's because of the philosophy or belief that I live by of wanting to see everyone succeed, so whether you're Bill Kelso (lying scumbags), Stu at LW (macho asshole), Dave Himel (arrogant prick) or John Chapman (who plays favorites and has no concept of prompt responsiveness) I don't want to see any of these companies suffer unless they absolutely deserve it.

(Side note about DD that's kind of funny as I don't think there was a jacket that was "ooo'd and ahhh'd" over ever in TFL history more than A-1's DD Buco)

 

[Flying Monkey]

I've worked in the same small machine job shop for 27 years now. We do very precision work and are quite expensive. We're often the only shop in the area that can do a particular part. "Yeah, those guys there can do that part, but it's going to cost you." That type of thing. That said, once in a while something does get out the door that didn't make print, it happens. We usually hear about it very fast from the customer, and we should. The owner responds quickly to make it right and we heavily discount the job or do it for free. The company owner has said "The only thing you really have in a job shop is your reputation." Well, a custom jacket maker is basically a job shop. If he doesn't take care of his customers, he will usually not be in business very long. Excessive branding and hype won't last, quality and excellent customer relations will. On the other side of the equation, I think the customer should be clear, timely, and reasonable in his complaints. Sometimes there is a difference of opinion or incomplete communication and both sides need to take a deep breath and work out a solution. Now...if the customer still feels he has been cheated or dismissed by the jacket maker, I would think he would be well within his rights to voice his concerns to others, again, in a clear and reasonable fashion. The internet and forums such as this function nicely for this. When it comes to expensive items, people really do vote with their feet.

 

[zebedee]

so whether you're Bill Kelso (lying scumbags), Stu at LW (macho asshole), Dave Himel (arrogant prick) or John Chapman (who plays favorites and has no concept of prompt responsiveness) I don't want to see any of these companies suffer unless they absolutely deserve it.

I love this.

 

[Monitor]

I'm not saying more on the matter but there was that one jacket that everyone seemed to have liked and

So I wouldn't want to do anything that will ruin someone's business or take food off their table if it isn't absolutely necessary.

Maybe it's because I love leather jackets so much or maybe it's because of the philosophy or belief that I live by of wanting to see everyone succeed, so whether you're Bill Kelso (lying scumbags), Stu at LW (macho asshole), Dave Himel (arrogant prick) or John Chapman (who plays favorites and has no concept of prompt responsiveness) I don't want to see any of these companies suffer unless they absolutely deserve it.

(Side note about DD that's kind of funny as I don't think there was a jacket that was "ooo'd and ahhh'd" over ever in TFL history more than A-1's DD Buco)

That's exactly how I feel and probably woulda been a lot more critical if I didn't know my inane venting over the internet is actually harming someone's business and thus livelihood - And at the end of the line, I never really bought a jacket that was tremendously bad. And I don't want any of the makers to have to shut down their business. Even SB. I want them to improve, to succeed, to come up with their own stuff and to get back on track.

 

[willyto]

I'm not saying more on the matter but there was that one jacket that everyone seemed to have liked and



That's exactly how I feel and probably woulda been a lot more critical if I didn't know my inane venting over the internet is actually harming someone's business and thus livelihood - And at the end of the line, I never really bought a jacket that was tremendously bad. And I don't want any of the makers to have to shut down their business. Even SB. I want them to improve, to succeed, to come up with their own stuff and to get back on track.

How did you quote @ton312 when @jeo wrote that?

 

[Monitor]

How did you quote @ton312 when @jeo wrote that?

Hahaha! Wow..! No clue! I just clicked on quote on Jeo's post. Weird.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I

That's critical Dude. In the review community it's getting harder to tell who is a shill and who is legit. We live in a saturated world of phoney product 'reviews' - this era's slightly more cunning marketing strategies. People buy things based on a tissue of lies.

In relation to jacket flaws. I think any response from the buyer is legitimate at any time in the life cycle of the product as long as language used is fair (not abusive or deceptive). Go to the maker, go on line and comment, tell your friends... Once a product is sold it is has its own life and a story to tell.

Yes, it is unfortunately so common right now. It's quite disheartening.

I do agree with you on that. Of course every customer is allowed to do whatever they want. I was speaking specifically from my own perspective as someone who writes "reviews." However legit people consider my reviews to be is up to them, but that's at least the perspective I look at it from.

 

[Bfd70]

Raise a glass lads to A-1. He was here. He kicked ass. He said he was out to see the world off the tiny screen. He didn’t look back.

 

[JMax]

Raise a glass lads to A-1. He was here. He kicked ass. He said he was out to see the world off the tiny screen. He didn’t look back.

Cheers. I wouldn’t mind if he popped back in for a second to show us the jacket. It has to be unbelievable now.

 

[jeo]

Even SB. I want them to improve, to succeed, to come up with their own stuff and to get back on track.

I actually had Alexander Leathers in my initial post but edited them out. Thievery is unacceptable and they deserved to be out of business. Not sure about SB as I don’t know if anyone from AL is part of that company. I just looked at their website and the models they have don’t seem to be a direct copy...can’t be sure if it’s from the same pattern though. They’re similar in design but not exactly the same as Aero’s.

 

[GHT]

A great thread Superfluous, and good to see you back. Your point is really all about customer service and could be expanded to anything that you have spent hard earned cash on, only to be disappointed when the product arrives.

My wife ordered a gizmo that's connects to a computer, from which she can design and cut out garment panels, including leather jackets. We had an expert assemble it, only to find that it wasn't working correctly. The company offered £20 off. You can offer £200 off, it doesn't work, not fit for purpose. They agreed to a refund but only when threatened with being reported to Amazon, through whom they had advertised it, but my wife still had to pay for return carriage.

There's a good point, should the seller or the buyer pay for return carriage? And what about additional insurance, who pays for that? An expensive jacket could go missing leaving the buyer out of pocket and no jacket. Thoughts!

 

[red devil]

There's a good point, should the seller or the buyer pay for return carriage? And what about additional insurance, who pays for that? An expensive jacket could go missing leaving the buyer out of pocket and no jacket. Thoughts!

Good question, if it is in the same country I would say on the seller. International orders, especially when customs are involved get too complicated to deal with

 

[ton312]

Cheers. I wouldn’t mind if he popped back in for a second to show us the jacket. It has to be unbelievable now.

By now it may well be transparent. It was on the teacore super-highway.