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[Hurricane Jack]

As the Lounge was founded on an interest of preserving the history and fashions of the Golden Era (~1920 - 1950), there is a heightened awareness among the Members who still embrace that for preservation.

Certainly, we expand that period in history. Plenty of folks here like to feature hats and styles that fall out of that range as the membership has morphed and grown. However, history preservation is a primary "mission" here.

Therefore, you're going to run into more folks that cringe at the idea of changing something classic - and made of Unobtanium - into something else, taking it away forever.

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I agree with all you have said & certainly agree with the inclusion of hats of the pre-Hatco 1950's - 1960's.

I was not a founding member, but an early member of the National Corvette Restorers Society (NCRS). It was founded for the preservation, restoration, & documentation to factory original condition of the 1953-1955 Chevrolet Corvette; shortly after the bylaws were adopted to cover the 1953-1962 Corvette (all straight axles). A minor brouhaha came when some yrs later when the bylaws were modified again to include the 1963-1967 Stingray era. But the biggest brouhaha came yet later with the inclusion of the 1968-1972 era. Still the Mission Statement was never compromised.

 

[Steinbockhase]

Therefore, you're going to run into more folks that cringe at the idea of changing something classic - and made of Unobtanium - into something else, taking it away forever.

Unobtanium = ?

 

[Hurricane Jack]

And if we didn't make it known to the public that we had substaintially changed a vintage lid, I doubt anyone would ever know the difference.

The preservation is not done for the public. It should mean more than that to us, otherwise all we need are those 15 MPH hats...that look good going by at 15 MPH.

 

[Steinbockhase]

The preservation is not done for the public.

Okay, for whom is the "preservation" then done for?
I know for whom my hat customization and modernization is done for .... me and my public appearance ... and that's what counts for me

 

[Hurricane Jack]

Okay, for whom is the "preservation" done for?
I know for whom my customization and modernization is done for .... me and my public appearance ... and that's what counts for me when talking about my hats

For the founding principals of the FL.

Your not listening:

 

[The Jackal]

Unobtanium = ?

Unobtanium is used to describe something that is so rare or so perfect that it is almost impossible to obtain. The idea is often used in science fiction, though it is rarely actually called that (Avatar being a notable exception, which just phoned it in when it came to the details of the plot hoping the visuals would make people ignore it)

 

[The Jackal]

For the founding principals of the FL.

Your not listening:

I think people get confused by the dichotomy between members who swear by preservation, and the seemingly equal number of members that are emphatic with their need to modify hats to their particular tastes.

For my purposes, and money, it doesn't make sense for me to buy a vintage hat that needs significant alteration. I don't buy a lot of vintage hats I run across because they aren't something I would wear. I recognize the rarity, but as was pointed out earlier, why bother buying and modifying a cowboy hat into a fedora when I can just buy a fedora.

 

[drmaxtejeda]

That's a fair response. I think you and I would find we agree much more than we disagree. But I'm also glad I asked the question, because this is a very nuanced subject.
What you said to Jim was a lot like what you said to me. I appreciate that you said it to me. It couldn't hurt by any means, and if I was some Mad Hatter seeking out rare collectibles to tear down like Confederate statues, someone needed to stand in the gap, warning me of the inevitable resitance, being despised by collectors, etc..
I tried to bring the matter up in a light handed way, because our differences may be more liquistic than anything. The last thing I was trying to do was accuse you of hypocrisy. You took more time than anyone else to help me find my way around these forums when I first registered. I'm very grateful.
Communicating like this, in written word, lacking voice intonation, facial expression, a wink and a nod or smile, we don't always convey our tone in the way we hoped, or even believed we did.
Tasked now with trying to interpret your tone, I worry that you seemed to have gone on the defensive a bit. I must have failed at getting my own friendly overtures across. Oh no!
It can turn into an excersize in chasing rabbits. So let me back up.
You were the most helpful Lounger when I came, and you were also the one who most suggested I cool my jets, mainly because you were the most involved with me, period. The entire tone dilemna comes into play. Is deadlyhandsom being a friendly mentor, or some sort of gatekeeper? You might have never seen yourself like either, or considered that someone might interpret you that way.
See what I mean?
So, let me say, it's possible for someone on the recieving end of this modification of vintage hats talk to feel that you're being a bit preachy, even if that was never your intention.
Maybe the word vintage is so broad that we miss the mark at times. The state tells us what a vintage car is, and we save money on tags and taxes. Vintage hats are different, but they are still pieces of history that deserve preservation. One sad thing about our American cities is that in the American dream of bigger, better, faster, many historic buildings were razed to erect the latest 'advancement', and we lost some valuable touchstones to our past. After a lot of it was gone, historical societies managed to carve out Historic Districts.
I don't picture hat permits and inspectors, so we have to work it out by convincing one another. You seem to use 'vintage' interchangeably with 'collectable'. I use it depicting age, and might qualify it with collectable. I wasnt' trying to call you on anything, but did hope to open this kind of discussion. What makes something old worth preserving and collecting? Age alone? Historical Societies never sweat bullets about old rat infested tenements. Scarcity? There are a lot less Yugos on the road today, but no campaign to save them from the crusher. I could crush one tomorrow and people would be more likely to thank me than condemn me.
Maybe we need to discuss more which hats resemble Yugos, and why.
Peace, hat brother!

PS
I hope you're right about the Hasidim. Have you heard what their remedy is for transgressions?



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"You took more time than anyone else to help me find my way around these forums when I first registered."
Brent was the same to me.

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[Steinbockhase]

The preservation is not done for the public.

Steinbockhase said: ↑
Okay, for whom is the "preservation" done for?

For the founding principals of the FL.
Your not listening:

The photos and information here on the lounge is accessible to and ultimatly intended for vintage enthusiasts and the public, or not so?
I can listen and still not agree

I think people get confused by the dichotomy between members who swear by preservation, and the seemingly equal number of members that are emphatic with their need to modify hats to their particular tastes.

For my purposes, and money, it doesn't make sense for me to buy a vintage hat that needs significant alteration. I don't buy a lot of vintage hats I run across because they aren't something I would wear. I recognize the rarity, but as was pointed out earlier, why bother buying and modifying a cowboy hat into a fedora when I can just buy a fedora.

I have a cousin who buys really old beat up vintage cars (i.e. model "T") and restores them into hot rods.
He could just go and by a new sports car; so is he committing a sin?

 

[The Jackal]

I have a cousin who buys really old beat up vintage cars (i.e. model "T") and restores them into hot rods.
He could just go and by a new sports car; so is he committing a sin?

That would be more akin to modifying a fedora to have the particular brim and crease style that you prefer.

He isn't taking a Model T and turning it into a Honda Civic

I think a comparison that works better to show what I meant is trying to convert a modern F250 into a modern Mustang. I'm sure it can be done, but what is the point?

There was no sports car equivalent on the market for the Model T, so you can't compare that to anything.

 

[jlee562]

I have a cousin who buys really old beat up vintage cars (i.e. model "T") and restores them into hot rods.
He could just go and by a new sports car; so is he committing a sin?

A sin? Not quite, but he maybe shouldn't expect a warm welcome if he goes online to a car restoration forum to ask for tips about how to tear his car apart.

 

[The Jackal]

A sin? Not quite, but he maybe shouldn't expect a warm welcome if he goes online to a car restoration forum to ask for tips about how to tear his car apart.

This reminds me of an episode of Vegas Rat Rods on Discovery channel where they took their recently modified Model A to a vintage Model A restoration club and how absolutely horrified the members were at what they had done.

When it comes down to it, you like what you like, and there will always be someone that thinks you are wrong for doing it the way you do it.

 

[Rmccamey]

Therein is the nuance of the discussion among us and that is how much is too much. The answer is, it depends. As Brent (I think) mentioned, we are all somewhere on a scale but we are not all at the same point on that scale. To restore a 53 Vette, you probably did not use spark plugs or plug wires or tires or light bulbs made in 1953...and maybe even some body or interior parts. In such endeavors, many people use modern production replica parts. The car looks and performs and functions like the original (maybe better) but with some parts, however minor they may be, that are not original.

With regard to hats, can I replace the broken stitching with new thread? Can I replace a broken and rotting sweatband with new leather? If the new sweatband happens to make the hat a size larger or smaller, or even a half size larger or smaller, have I violated the integrity of the hat and made it something it is not? If a ribbon is shot, can I replace it with a ribbon of a different size or color and still have "an original"?

The debate will continue for sure. So, where are you along the scale? For me (purely regarding vintage hats), if the brim edge has physical damage (cuts, rips, tears), I an OK with removing enough of the brim to get back to a smooth brim edge OR binding the brim to cover the damage. As far as size, I draw the line at reblocking or otherwise changing the felt to the point that the brim diameter is noticeably impacted. Not having been in that exact situation, I don't have an exact answer but I'm thinking that to take a hat up 2 sizes, or 3 or 4, would be too much for me to still say the hat was "original".

Thanks for listening. No offense meant to anyone.

RM

 

[Steinbockhase]

The debate between "Preservation vs. Customization" is a battle you can neither win nor lose, because both sides have good plausible arguments to make their case.
Like mosts debates between Republicans and Democrats ... no side is totally right or wrong

BTW: I actually like that cartoon ... could really be me drawing attention with "Yoda" pants in a "Yoga" class.
Yes ... I am a "show-off" and not ashamed to admit it!

 

[Steinbockhase]

A sin? Not quite, but he maybe shouldn't expect a warm welcome if he goes online to a car restoration forum to ask for tips about how to tear his car apart.

... but he has plenty of friends in the hot rod scene ... "birds of a feather, flock together"

 

[Hurricane Jack]

I think people get confused by the dichotomy between members who swear by preservation, and the seemingly equal number of members that are emphatic with their need to modify hats to their particular tastes.

There should be no confusion for "long time lurkers".

The photos and information here on the lounge is accessible to and ultimatly intended for vintage enthusiasts and the public, or not so?

Of course, so how could a "long time lurker" not know what the FL was all about?

To restore a 53 Vette, you probably did not use spark plugs or plug wires or tires or light bulbs made in 1953...and maybe even some body or interior parts. In such endeavors, many people use modern production replica parts. The car looks and performs and functions like the original (maybe better) but with some parts, however minor they may be, that are not original.

Then you would be wrong, right down to the Delco T3 headlight bulbs. Exact reproduction parts definitely knock off judging points & resale value of the restoration.

With regard to hats, can I replace the broken stitching with new thread? Can I replace a broken and rotting sweatband with new leather? If the new sweatband happens to make the hat a size larger or smaller, or even a half size larger or smaller, have I violated the integrity of the hat and made it something it is not?

Hat maintenance & repair such as sweats have always been preferred as necessary. This has been addressed many times.

This will be my last reply on this topic. Nothing changed the last time it was discussed, for the most part it just went underground.

 

[jlee562]

... but he has plenty of friends in the hot rod scene ... "birds of a feather, flock together"

Then they should probably start their own car mod forum.

 

[Hat and Rehat]

Preservation vs. Customization and Modernization
... something you can argue about with many things.
i.e. vintage cars, old buildings, antique furniture, etc.

That's certainly true. However, there doesn'T seem to be much arguing going on. If more were, this might be easier to understand. Preservation is clearly encouraged, but just as clearly, modification is occurring, and also just as clearly, it is not roundly, categorically condemned. There's a distinction somewhere that I'm finding elusive. It even appears presently that the distinction is supposed to be left an unspoken enigma. It's not difficult to distinguish between 1910 and 1990, but there is a lot olf territory not so clearly delineated, where questions are producing oblique responses instead of direct answers.
The puzzle seems to be missing a piece.

 

[Rmccamey]

Congratulations. I would say you are one of the few who go to such great lengths and I'm proud of you for doing so. Would love to see pics of the car sometime.

So, a couple of questions come to mind. Do those tires made in 1953 still hold air and are they roadworthy? Secondly, how many miles a year to you put on the Vette?

Then you would be wrong, right down to the Delco T3 headlight bulbs. Exact reproduction parts definitely knock off judging points & resale value of the restoration

 

[Bill Hughes]

Therein is the nuance of the discussion among us and that is how much is too much. The answer is, it depends. As Brent (I think) mentioned, we are all somewhere on a scale but we are not all at the same point on that scale. To restore a 53 Vette, you probably did not use spark plugs or plug wires or tires or light bulbs made in 1953...and maybe even some body or interior parts. In such endeavors, many people use modern production replica parts. The car looks and performs and functions like the original (maybe better) but with some parts, however minor they may be, that are not original.

With regard to hats, can I replace the broken stitching with new thread? Can I replace a broken and rotting sweatband with new leather? If the new sweatband happens to make the hat a size larger or smaller, or even a half size larger or smaller, have I violated the integrity of the hat and made it something it is not? If a ribbon is shot, can I replace it with a ribbon of a different size or color and still have "an original"?

The debate will continue for sure. So, where are you along the scale? For me (purely regarding vintage hats), if the brim edge has physical damage (cuts, rips, tears), I an OK with removing enough of the brim to get back to a smooth brim edge OR binding the brim to cover the damage. As far as size, I draw the line at reblocking or otherwise changing the felt to the point that the brim diameter is noticeably impacted. Not having been in that exact situation, I don't have an exact answer but I'm thinking that to take a hat up 2 sizes, or 3 or 4, would be too much for me to still say the hat was "original".

Thanks for listening. No offense meant to anyone.

RM

And..... If I buy a hat labeled 7 1/4 but has stretched over time to a 7 1/2 is it wrong to get it back to a 7 1/4? Or is it wrong to leave as a 7 1/2 which originally was not?

If a ribbon is faded, ripped, or damaged is it wrong to replace it with the original color non-faded vintage ribbon? That would be original but not show the age! Is it wrong to change the color or width even if they were options when the hat was new?

What about a 1930s hat that had the ribbon replaced in the 40s or 50s. Do you try to get the original ribbon or leave it compromised by the newer 40s/50s ribbon?

Examples can go on and on. I'm all for preservation and restoration. But the idea that a hat bought new in the 1900-1950s range would never be altered by the owners is not believable. And I realize that this could be a very valid reason to leave unaltered examples of vintage hats as is. I fully support keeping them as mint as possible if that's your thing. I know some who will wear hats with sweatbands that are all but completely rotten. I will replace a bad sweatband in a heartbeat.

I appreciate those who try to maintain "original" as much as possible. If I change a ribbon I keep the original so it can be switched back for that very reason. I keep old sweatbands, tags, and labels for provenance.

I've seen hats on this forum altered in ways that make me cringe. And I'm sure I've caused others to feel the same with stuff I've done. I assure you that was not my intent. I respect each and every person on the lounge and seek advise and wisdom from many.