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[Hat and Rehat]

I agree with what Jim says.
Also, i’ll add, that as soon as one tries to define collectable vintage in hat’s or anything else for that matter, the result will be as varied as the personal preferences we are all biased by.
B

You bet!
Eventually, even Yugos will be collectible.

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[Hat and Rehat]

You bet!
Eventually, even Yugos will be collectible.

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I hope sincerely that I don't live to see that day.

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[Hurricane Jack]

I haven't weighed in on this, but an observation.

Another observation & just one example:

The original purpose of the FL concerning hats seems to get left further & further behind with each wave of newbies.

Whether we classify them as vintage or not, we will never know how many Stetson One-hundreds sold during the 1950's - 1970's as they were an expensive hat in their day. Most if not all were wide 2-3/4" - 3" brims with thin ribbons. They were Western dress hats. It's a sure bet even fewer survive in good shape today, that's exactly why this topic of preserving/modifying has surfaced again. Knowing this I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would buy a quality hat such as a One-hundred & proceed to cut the brim down, change the ribbon & fedoraize it because they don't like the "cowboy" look.

Stetson, Resistol & and a few more hat companies are now American icons. They are uniquely American. We should be preserving the quality hats made back in the days when they were stand alone companies instead of reducing their survival numbers by changing them forever to suit the current whim. Maybe we should be thinking & preserving hats from the pre-Hatco era as something truly American.

 

[belfastboy]

I haven't weighed in on this, but an observation.

Around here, "vintage" has come to be regarded as "back when they made them right." While a Stetson from 1975 is "vintage," when most of us are talking vintage, we primarily mean pre-1960 or so.

Hatmaking skills seriously deteriorated after that, with a few exceptions. So those of us who collect and amass consider those hats, for the most part, collectible.

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I agree with your comments above but it struck me that using the automobile example......in my view autos today are far superior to vintage and as I stated I doubt my 2010 Hyundai that is a marvel compared with my very rare 1951 Chevy fastback but the Hyundai will never be considered a collectible. I guess that is where my example of comparing hats and cars falls apart.

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

I agree with your comments above but it struck me that using the automobile example......in my view autos today are far superior to vintage and as I stated I doubt my 2010 Hyundai that is a marvel compared with my very rare 1951 Chevy fastback but the Hyundai will never be considered a collectible. I guess that is where my example of comparing hats and cars falls apart.

Let’s see the 51 FB!!

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Ok. I'm just getting worried I'll have to play Hank Reardon to your John Galt. <G>

We have even more in common than I previously suspected.
I'm very glad we have to work this out ourselves through persuassion rather than, "There oughta be a law."
Some of my exhuberance right now, of which there's a lot compared to earlier times in my life, comes from the fact I'm not only fleeing a very painful realization that I'm increasingly unable to perform physically at things I always felt able to hold my own at previously.
I have, since my first venture online when we bought a PC in 1999, been arguing with people about free markets. I suspect few people are more radical than I am on the subject of intellectual property rights.
But, that's all I want to say about it. I've said enough.
I want to talk hats.

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No one should be telling you what to do with your property. They can express their opinions and try to get you to see their way of thinking, but in the end we need to do better at minding our own business (see, there’s that hypocrisy I was talking about).

I run into environmentalist every week who don’t think we should be running cattle or doing whatever else is happening on private property. I’m fine with them having their opinions and trying to convert others, but I don’t tolerate being lectured to on what I do with my own property and I defend others’ right to do whatever they want to do with their property...at least until their actions encroach in a meaningful way onto someone else’s rights.

Hats are inanimate objects without feelings or souls. I don’t like seeing vintage hats “destroyed,” but in the final analysis they are mere things...transitory possessions. I agree with being a caretaker of history, but will civilization really be impacted if some rare vintage hat is modified? Are we really losing anything? It’s a hat. The Mona Lisa is just a paining. The David is just a sculpture. How you decide to value things is a deeply personal decision.

By the way, I’m not much of an Ayn Rand fan...no room for religion, faith, or selflessness in objectivism. Her utopia was pretty hellish.


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[Hurricane Jack]

I guess that is where my example of comparing hats and cars falls apart.

The numbers work against your argument also. In the 1950's & 1960's there were still sufficient numbers of Model T's & Model A Fords to be converted into hot rods that would have otherwise been processed to scrap. The restoration era was still another 20 yrs or so away". Few were wanted otherwise.

I personally don't care anything about quality stingy brim pork pies made by Cavanagh for example, but I would never dream of converting one into a fez.

 

[humanshoes]

Hatmaking skills seriously deteriorated after that

I agree with most of what you're saying here Fruno. No question that hat quality suffered after the middle of the 20th century, but I don't think it was due to any lack of skill on the hat maker's part. I believe, rather, that when men's fashion trended away from daily hat wear and with sales in decline, manufacturers began to employ cost saving shortcuts in the process that resulted in lesser quality hats. I think this happened mostly at the felting stage, but I also think that the hatters themselves were prevented from spending as much time on hand finishing and attention to detail. The felted brim edge didn't go the way of the Dodo bird because the manufacturers lost the technology or hat makers forgot how to do them.

As to the question of whether these beautiful old examples of the hat makers art should be preserved, unaltered, for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. Well, assuming that future generations will even care (big leap in my mind), it seems to me that we have enough caretakers, collectors, and curators out there to safely allow some other folks to turn their vintage lids into something useful and personal to them without fear of losing an entire chapter of human history.

Well crap, I got a little verbose and boorish there myself. My apologies.

 

[humanshoes]

I just realized I might be turning into this guy. Hah!

 

[HuangCheng]

Hi there, Many of fans like me r wondering,
I pay attention on Johnny Depp's fedora, he like to wear a hat wiz couple holes,

I saw the hole on this Whippet（following photos）become bigger and bigger, in last picture it become a very huge hole, the crown almost be apart.

Do u think it happened naturally or Johnny made the hole get bigger for a style? Or his stylist made it?

I can't ask Johnny, but I think I could find some help or suggestions here.

 

[deadlyhandsome]

Hi there, Many of fans like me r wondering,
I pay attention on Johnny Depp's fedora, he like to wear a hat wiz couple holes,

I saw the hole on this Whippet（following photos）become bigger and bigger, in last picture it become a very huge hole, the crown almost be apart.

Do u think it happened naturally or Johnny made the hole get bigger for a style? Or may be his stylist made it?

I can't ask Johnny, LOL, but maybe you can help me know it well with ur experience.

A fedora fan: View attachment 175345 View attachment 175346 View attachment 175347 HuangCheng

Who can say with any certainty? Logically, I’d say someone helped it along, but that’s just a guess. Can’t say I personally like the look; the homeless chic look is lost on me, but to each their own.


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[AbbaDatDeHat]

I just realized I might be turning into this guy. Hah!
View attachment 175349

Every time i see Cliff i think of this scene.
Priceless!!
B

 

[Hat and Rehat]

Another observation & just one example:

The original purpose of the FL concerning hats seems to get left further & further behind with each wave of newbies.

Whether we classify them as vintage or not, we will never know how many Stetson One-hundreds sold during the 1950's - 1970's as they were an expensive hat in their day. Most if not all were wide 2-3/4" - 3" brims with thin ribbons. They were Western dress hats. It's a sure bet even fewer survive in good shape today, that's exactly why this topic of preserving/modifying has surfaced again. Knowing this I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would buy a quality hat such as a One-hundred & proceed to cut the brim down, change the ribbon & fedoraize it because they don't like the "cowboy" look.

Stetson, Resistol & and a few more hat companies are now American icons. They are uniquely American. We should be preserving the quality hats made back in the days when they were stand alone companies instead of reducing their survival numbers by changing them forever to suit the current whim. Maybe we should be thinking & preserving hats from the pre-Hatco era as something truly American.

I'd like to hear more about how and why the Lounge was founded, Jack. The kind of guidance you're offering is what I was hoping to spark conversation about. I'd like to ask some follow up questions, but first I'd like to say that this discussion didn't begin with the scenario you described. JustJim asked a question about reblocking a hat, and how much of the taper could be removed. Initially he didn't mention any particular hats, or why he wanted to do it. It was more of a technical question. He wondered if blocking a hat with very straight sides on the crown would make it too difficult to remove from the block. It was a couple of more posts before we knew a Stetson 100 and Resistol San Antone were candidates for straighter crown blocking. That's also when we discovered JustJim was planning this as a way to make the hats fit himause he doesn't, not because he doesn't like the cowboy look. I think that's exactly the look he does like, but is very frustrated by buying hats that were supposed to fit, but were too small. Brent and I both, in different ways, discouraged him from fundamentally altering those hats. Can you blame a guy for wanting to make his hats fit?

But I was hoping to open a discussion going beyond that. Not every hat is a Stetson 100. Do you believe it's wrong for us to alter any hat produced when the hat companies were independent entities? We're outraged about someone changing the 100 in part because so many people, ourselves included, would love to own it just as it was made. The same desire doesn't exist for every hat though. I find I want to own hat styles that I never paid much attention to before. I don't necessarily want to own more than one though. And I would snatch up a prime hat even if it needed repair, if the price was right. Some hats giving it to me might be the only right price. And not only I feel that way.
Are some hats from that era legitimate candidates for remodeling into another style? I'm interested in hearing where others might draw a line, with some hats off limits, but others free game. I don't feel any big obligation to preserve all of my hats unchanged.

 

[HuangCheng]

Who can say with any certainty? Logically, I’d say someone helped it along, but that’s just a guess. Can’t say I personally like the look; the homeless chic look is lost on me, but to each their own.


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Yes, agree, This is not a normal look, for some fedora, Im just thinking of trying that style.

 

[Steinbockhase]

I'd like to hear more about how and why the Lounge was founded, Jack. The kind of guidance you're offering is what I was hoping to spark conversation about. I'd like to ask some follow up questions, but first I'd like to say that this discussion didn't begin with the scenario you described. JustJim asked a question about reblocking a hat, and how much of the taper could be removed. Initially he didn't mention any particular hats, or why he wanted to do it. It was more of a technical question. He wondered if blocking a hat with very straight sides on the crown would make it too difficult to remove from the block. It was a couple of more posts before we knew a Stetson 100 and Resistol San Antone were candidates for straighter crown blocking. That's also when we discovered JustJim was planning this as a way to make the hats fit himause he doesn't, not because he doesn't like the cowboy look. I think that's exactly the look he does like, but is very frustrated by buying hats that were supposed to fit, but were too small. Brent and I both, in different ways, discouraged him from fundamentally altering those hats. Can you blame a guy for wanting to make his hats fit?

But I was hoping to open a discussion going beyond that. Not every hat is a Stetson 100. Do you believe it's wrong for us to alter any hat produced when the hat companies were independent entities? We're outraged about someone changing the 100 in part because so many people, ourselves included, would love to own it just as it was made. The same desire doesn't exist for every hat though. I find I want to own hat styles that I never paid much attention to before. I don't necessarily want to own more than one though. And I would snatch up a prime hat even if it needed repair, if the price was right. Some hats giving it to me might be the only right price. And not only I feel that way.
Are some hats from that era legitimate candidates for remodeling into another style? I'm interested in hearing where others might draw a line, with some hats off limits, but others free game. I don't feel any big obligation to preserve all of my hats unchanged.

Preservation vs. Customization and Modernization
... something you can argue about with many things.
i.e. vintage cars, old buildings, antique furniture, etc.

 

[Rmccamey]

I completely agree. While this is an interesting philosophical discussion, it is all academic. I, or any one of you, could take any hat we own, change it any way we pleased, and still walk down the street with a smile. And if we didn't make it known to the public that we had substaintially changed a vintage lid, I doubt anyone would ever know the difference. And, beyond a few hundred of us on the Lounge, I doubt anyone would care.

Preservation vs. Customization and Modernization
... something you can argue about with many things.
i.e. vintage cars, old buildings, antique furniture, etc.

 

[Frunobulax]

Every time i see Cliff i think of this scene.
Priceless!!
B

"Dance, mailman!"

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[Frunobulax]

As the Lounge was founded on an interest of preserving the history and fashions of the Golden Era (~1920 - 1950), there is a heightened awareness among the Members who still embrace that for preservation.

Certainly, we expand that period in history. Plenty of folks here like to feature hats and styles that fall out of that range as the membership has morphed and grown. However, history preservation is a primary "mission" here.

Therefore, you're going to run into more folks that cringe at the idea of changing something classic - and made of Unobtanium - into something else, taking it away forever.

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[Frunobulax]

I agree with most of what you're saying here Fruno. No question that hat quality suffered after the middle of the 20th century, but I don't think it was due to any lack of skill on the hat maker's part. I believe, rather, that when men's fashion trended away from daily hat wear and with sales in decline, manufacturers began to employ cost saving shortcuts in the process that resulted in lesser quality hats. I think this happened mostly at the felting stage, but I also think that the hatters themselves were prevented from spending as much time on hand finishing and attention to detail. The felted brim edge didn't go the way of the Dodo bird because the manufacturers lost the technology or hat makers forgot how to do them.

As to the question of whether these beautiful old examples of the hat makers art should be preserved, unaltered, for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. Well, assuming that future generations will even care (big leap in my mind), it seems to me that we have enough caretakers, collectors, and curators out there to safely allow some other folks to turn their vintage lids into something useful and personal to them without fear of losing an entire chapter of human history.

Well crap, I got a little verbose and boorish there myself. My apologies.

Well, perhaps I should have said"abandoned their skills."

And if they're not used and developed, we do lose them, making preservation much more important to those of us that history means something to.

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[Hurricane Jack]

I'd like to hear more about how and why the Lounge was founded, Jack. The kind of guidance you're offering is what I was hoping to spark conversation about.

Whether it was actually written as a "Mission Statement" or not the principals the FL was founded on were those of the preservation of hats, clothing & other objects of an era established as ~1900 - 1950. Thru the collecting & hard work of various individuals such as the Hatted Professor came the accumulation & documentation of the hats & the companies that made them. I don't know how so many newbies who claim to have lurked on the FL for yrs before joining could not know that.

JustJim asked a question about reblocking a hat,

JustJim's OP on blocking hats up in size (not stretching) was out of frustration on not being able to find quality hats such as the San Antonio & a Stetson One-hundred in his size (7-1/2, 7-5/8) which led to him considering blocking up the smaller sized hats that he had. Give JustJim credit for knowing that proper blocking makes the hat what it is. Taking the issue of size out of the equation most newbies know little about the importance of proper blocking in keeping the integrity in the original appearance of a hat. I was not referring to his post when I referenced some 100's being fedoraized because they looked too "Cowboy" for the owner.

Can you blame a guy for wanting to make his hats fit?

Would you ever approve of modifying for fit or any other reason a Stetson Ermine? If not, then why would you approve the same for a 100, a 7XCB, a Nutria, No.1Q, etc? There are not infinite numbers of these hats available.

Are some hats from that era legitimate candidates for remodeling into another style? I'm interested in hearing where others might draw a line, with some hats off limits, but others free game. I don't feel any big obligation to preserve all of my hats unchanged.

I tend to think of the companies I think of as American icons of the past, but the same principals of preservation should apply to Borsalino & others. As the old saying goes, they ain't making 'em anymore: Stetson, Resistol, Cavanagh, Crofut & Knapp, Mallory, Dunlap, Wormser just to name a few. If you want to permanently modify a hat into something it isn't, modify an Akubra or an Optimo; they can be replaced.