You Look It, But Do You Act It?

[jamespowers]

You can immediately give her a lesson in why she's wrong, rather than apologizing, if you prefer. lol

With the last person I encountered who was offended, I would be afraid she might have bit me if I tried that. :eusa_doh:

 

[reetpleat]

Absolutely, Amy Jeanne - I have a fondness for these aspects as well (it would be hard to love the twenties and not have a soft spot for what sometimes edges into the loud or OTT...it's part of the charm of the era).

I've spent years researching a particular Edwardian / Twenties merchant mariner who, having grown up in a particular milieu, had a certain penchant for strong language. During a particular event his language was so "colourful" that it was thought by one particular disapproving passenger that he was drunk (he was a lifelong total abstainer). And yet others recognised his extraordinary personal heroism and character - typical of the remarks about him came from one of the women whom he rescued during the event, who said he could not have shown her more courtesy, and another who said that to her he personified the finest traditions of the British sailor. One newspaper editorial was scathing about the woman's criticisms, asking if he should have confined himself to language appropriate to a game of croquet. Even in the Gilded Age (let alone the golden age), some people could recognise that there were more important qualities to being a natural gentleman than the words he chose. As a family member told me, his language might have been littered with high seas invective, but he was otherwise a Victorian gentleman.

When we see the golden age through rosy glasses and draw negative comparisions with life today, I'm always reminded of Louise Brookes' comment about hypocrites who "prayed in the parlour and practiced incest in the barn" (she had reason to be angry - she'd been a victim of sexual abuse herself). I have relatives on both sides of my family who were only able in recent years to reveal that they were abused by trusted family friends and authority figures in the 30s and 50s - and these were from "nice" families in "safe" suburban areas. Which is not to say that these things do not occur today - only that the past isn't perfect. One of the things that so fascinates me about studying social history is the surface gloss, the underbelly, and everything in between.

As I said, I like having more freedom to choose everything from my values to my personal style. Many aspects of the age have a dual edge to them - one of the things today that concerns me is the increasing sense of urban isolation. We work long hours, we come home on a long commute, we shut ourselves up with our home entertainment centres and have little connection with those around us. There are many lonely, isolated people out there, particularly the elderly, who once would have been more engaged with their neighbours. The downside to that former social proximity was the fact that sometimes your neighbours were not just close to you, they were judging you, and if you stepped outside approved behavioural perameters your life could be made a misery.

Miss 1929, I'm absolutely with you on your post - and delight in the fact that we have a choice on whether or not we want to listen to deliciously degenerate jazz.

Agreed. Furthermore, there is a b it of a myth about language and manners back in the day. We only know movies and polite society. amongst the working classes, language could be quite course, and manners, courtesy, and such were not always present. Deadwood is a pretty accurate representation of life back then, and the streets of new York were rife with thieves, murderers, gangs etc. Check out gangs of new york, based on an actual non fiction book of the events of the time.

If you ar asking how well people here fit into the myth of the golden era, that is another question all together.

As for me, i am modern in most respects, except for my tastes in certain clothes and music. For so,me reason,I love vintage style, cars etc, and music and danciing. And I love going out with friends all dressed up or going to an event. IF I am at a dance or other event, i will comport myself in the style of the era (myth of the era perhaps) Outside of that, I am just a regular guyt. lasst night I had a date, and I opened the car door for her, and often do that with clients as well, when I am driving the around. but if I had an auto unlock, I probably wouldn't. I often hold a door open for anyone. But no more for a woman or date than anyone else. As for walking on any particular side or more arbitrary manners, pulling a chair out, standing when a woman enters the room. Just seems rather silly and arbitrary to me. But more power to those who want to. Just please don't hold it up as some standard to which people should perform.

As for dancing, love it. Let's just say, I like to play dress up and make believe i am back in the day sometimes. But it is about the same as a renaissance participant. My greatest love, by the way, is not mainstream culture, but marginal hip culture, like jazz hipsters, zoot suiters, latino rockers etc.

As for myth attitudes, I am quite liberal, and my only vintage attitudes might be something like an extreme liberal from back in the day, such as a communist, maybe a leninist or trotskyite or socialist rather than a stalinist (back then, it was more of an ideal and we did not have the soviet union around so long making it look bad) or a WWII non initerventionist.

 

[reetpleat]

I was also raised by old fashioned parents (born 1918 and 1919) who taught me their values. And since I was an only child, those values stuck. I also have never been drunk (I don't even drink, and never have) and I try to treat others as I'd like to be treated.

I find that most of my friends are ten years older than me. I guess that's because our values are more alike. I don't try to be old-fashioned...it's just who I am. People my own age never understood me nor I them. That's why I find the Lounge to be so much fun...it's full of people who are displaced in time - like me!

funny, because alcohol plays such a big role in vintage nostalgia. Martinis, prohibition speak easies etc. You don't get a much bigger golden era icon as Nick charles, and it was a big running joke how he always prioritized drinking. I imagine the goal was to have a constant buzz for him.

Of course, back then, it actually meant something to not drink. You could be t-total, or an abstainer, or even join the4 abstinance party. Now you are just a guy who doesn't drink.

Of course, there is still an abstinance party, so I heard on the radio.

 

[$ally]

I do agree that there have been trashy people through out time.
Gangs of New York is one of the most historically incorrect movies of all time, closely followed by Braveheart.

 

[reetpleat]

With the last person I encountered who was offended, I would be afraid she might have bit me if I tried that. :eusa_doh:

While it is thankfully more nuanced now, I can understand why some women took offense. What you call good manners, they saw as patronizing. of course, you would never say, "you are too weak to open your own door so I will open it for you because I am a man, and strong enough to do what you can't." But if that is how they took it, then they would take offense.

Did you say that with your actions? Well, you didn't mean it. But they might feel you did. so, are you wrong, or are they. Neither. Just a matter of interpretation.

You are not wrong. But you can call anything you want, manners. But if it offends people, then it isn't good manners and it is even worse manners to get upset that they did not appreciate your "manners" and took offense at it.

Please note, i am not intending any offense to your or your attitudes. i am just trying to explain why women of the era might have taken offense at such actions, and assert their right to interpret it however they saw fit. It certainly is a complex and interesting situation.

 

[reetpleat]

Perhaps, but the portrayal of the amount, demeanor and behavior of the gangs was accurate in my opinion. As for the details, I couldn't say.

 

[jamespowers]

While it is thankfully more nuanced now, I can understand why some women took offense. What you call good manners, they saw as patronizing. of course, you would never say, "you are too weak to open your own door so I will open it for you because I am a man, and strong enough to do what you can't." But if that is how they took it, then they would take offense.

Did you say that with your actions? Well, you didn't mean it. But they might feel you did. so, are you wrong, or are they. Neither. Just a matter of interpretation.

You are not wrong. But you can call anything you want, manners. But if it offends people, then it isn't good manners and it is even worse manners to get upset that they did not appreciate your "manners" and took offense at it.

Please note, i am not intending any offense to your or your attitudes. i am just trying to explain why women of the era might have taken offense at such actions, and assert their right to interpret it however they saw fit. It certainly is a complex and interesting situation.

The difference is that I did it with good intentions only to be looked at like I had two heads and making some rude comment. To return courtesy with rudeness is wrong. Simple.
What is funny now, as a consequence, is how we also have threads that question if romance is dead and what attributes people look for in a mate that are hard to find. Treating women like men just doesn't work. We are different and should celebrate it in many wonderful ways.

 

[Diamondback]

So, if you have offended somebody without meaning to, don't apologize? Ok, I'm writing this all down. lol

Color me confused--wouldn't apologizing to somebody after deliberately offending them kinda defeat the purpose? (Well, unless you've read the "Gospel of St. Alex" and are invoking its strategy of "Get in bad--then get in good"...)

lol

 

[jamespowers]

I do agree that there have been trashy people through out time.
Gangs of New York is one of the most historically incorrect movies of all time, closely followed by Braveheart.

The difference is how they were treated. Accepting or turning a blind eye to trashy behavior makes it acceptable.
We also need to judge those of the past based upon their standards and not those of our time. I certainly would not want to be judged by the standards of 60 years in the future.

 

[jamespowers]

So, if you have offended somebody without meaning to, don't apologize? Ok, I'm writing this all down. lol/QUOTE]
Color me confused--wouldn't apologizing to somebody after deliberately offending them kinda defeat the purpose? (Well, unless you've read the "Gospel of St. Alex" and are invoking its strategy of "Get in bad--then get in good"...)

lol

lol lol lol lol lol You also don't have a right not to be offended. If that were the case, I would have to write down dozens of ocassions everyday.

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Color me confused--wouldn't apologizing to somebody after deliberately offending them kinda defeat the purpose?

lol

lol Hm, you might be on to something there.

 

[Diamondback]

Hey, at least I'm not in the George Hayduke camp of "Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness"!

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Now playing: John Williams - Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed
via FoxyTunes

 

[jamespowers]

Hey, at least I'm not in the George Hayduke camp of "Never apologize, it's a sign of weakness"!

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Now playing: John Williams - Temple Ruins and the Secret Revealed
via FoxyTunes

I can see that by your tag line.

 

[Diamondback]

Yeah, despite best intents I seriously stepped on somebody's toes, which is why I left for most of December. Good point--I think I've made mine, so I need to update the sig, rip that out and update my av, since I'm no longer "bugged out"...

Seriously, it takes a lot of strength IMO for someone to be able to admit "I was wrong."

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Now playing: John Williams - Anakin Vs. Obi-Wan
via FoxyTunes

 

[Viola]

You know we saved you a seat, D-back.

I forget if I replied in this thread earlier, but I don't think so.

I'm in the odd position of being a whole lot more old-fashioned than my parents. It was honestly a sort of rebellion for me, originally, though it's since stuck. My mom still finds a lot of it eye-poppingly appalling, especially vintage makeup and fashions and music. lol

"GLEN MILLER?!" *mimes being sick* Same goes for Sinatra, Benny Goodman, Hank Williams, even Elvis. [huh]

"You do NOT need to put on makeup to go to the STORE!"

"How can you be embarrassed by something so perfectly natural as..." Well you can guess.

I'm what she calls "uptight," which originally started as the most amusing way to be a 14-year-old who annoys her parents without giving them much to complain to their friends about and get sympathy for. lol

 

[Diamondback]

lol Hey, be nice--I respond to Elvis like that. (Hey, it is a 'vintage' response, since that's what parents thought--and the reversal's been mainly 'cause they didn't know how bad it was gonna get!lol)

As for saving a seat, thanks, but since I've been known to just park myself on people's desks (another MacArthurian quirk), how much removed is dropping anchor right on an unused section of the bar itself? (Besides, as a sawed-off runt I need the height equalizer...lol)

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Now playing: Basil Poledouris - Kaboom!!!
via FoxyTunes

 

[jamespowers]

You know we saved you a seat, D-back.

I forget if I replied in this thread earlier, but I don't think so.

I'm in the odd position of being a whole lot more old-fashioned than my parents. It was honestly a sort of rebellion for me, originally, though it's since stuck. My mom still finds a lot of it eye-poppingly appalling, especially vintage makeup and fashions and music. lol

"GLEN MILLER?!" *mimes being sick* Same goes for Sinatra, Benny Goodman, Hank Williams, even Elvis. [huh]

"You do NOT need to put on makeup to go to the STORE!"

"How can you be embarrassed by something so perfectly natural as..." Well you can guess.

I'm what she calls "uptight," which originally started as the most amusing way to be a 14-year-old who annoys her parents without giving them much to complain to their friends about and get sympathy for. lol

You weren't the one with ex-hippy parents were you?

 

[jamespowers]

lol Hey, be nice--I respond to Elvis like that. (Hey, it is a 'vintage' response, since that's what parents thought--and the reversal's been mainly 'cause they didn't know how bad it was gonna get!lol)

As for saving a seat, thanks, but since I've been known to just park myself on people's desks (another MacArthurian quirk), how much removed is dropping anchor right on an unused section of the bar itself? (Besides, as a sawed-off runt I need the height equalizer...lol)

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Now playing: Basil Poledouris - Kaboom!!!
via FoxyTunes

Better a sawed off runt rather than just a plain runt. You have an excuse.

 

[Mr_Misanthropy]

Good to see you back, Diamondback!

 

[Viola]

You weren't the one with ex-hippy parents were you?

My mom still has her street-cred, I believe.

My dad claims to have NOT been a hippie but just a "long-haired back to the lander living a schoolbus" which is apparently TOTALLY different. I don't know about that, the '70s were after my time. lol

As they've been married some 30-plus years and spent the schoolbus years happily together, I tar them both with the same patchouli-smelling brush.