Yes, Fepsa makes good stuff ...

[tonyb]

Recently attended a big Western wear trade show, at which I handled a good number of cowboy hats, some of which carried brand names you might recognize, and some of which you likely never heard of. But none of the truly big names were in attendance, so no Stetsons, Resistols, etc.

The good news is that the quality on the "real" fur felts now offered by those lesser-known makers ranged from very good to excellent. Every one of 'em had a model with some ridiculous number of Xes on its sweatband, but the quality of the hat very nearly matched its hype. And here's why: They're all using Fepsa bodies, the more expensive of which are very, very nice indeed. Smooth, even, luxurious hand. And even the lesser models, built on rabbit/hare blends, are certainly the equal of the mid-range hats of 60 or 70 years ago.

The bad news, if there is any, is that about the only thing separating one vendor's offerings from another's is the leather, the liner, and the trim. These makers -- too big, I think, to be considered cottage industry but still fairly small-time players in the game -- are getting their bodies already pounced and ready to block and trim. So, bing, bang, boom -- you got a hat, and a nice one, too. Some are trimmed out better than others, and the price points reflect that (in some cases, anyway), but the styles don't vary all that much from maker to maker. In other words, one company's hat is about as good as the other's, and that's very good or better in both cases.

We're talking hats that retail in the $500 range, so not cheap. But even the ones retailing for half that and less are still very nice hats.

If other players in the business have had their eyes examined lately, they would see this development as a game changer. The bar has been raised. Me, I think that's great. It doesn't have to be a threat so much as an incentive for all those other players to up their games.

 

[RBH]

Very insightful Tony.
I wish Mike and I was at the WESA event in Denver this year.
Maybe we could have met at The Ship Tavern in The Brown Palace for a cold one.

 

[RJR]

Interesting observations from one who understands the differences in quality felts/finishes.

 

[tonyb]

I don't wish to infer tooooo much as to the health of the industry and the quality of its products based solely on what the smaller-time Western hat factories are doing. That remains something of a niche market segment. I and you and the guy on the next barstool still see a heckuva lot more wool felts than anything approaching the quality of these Westerns.

But at least (and at last) we now have mass-produced hats to rival what was made back when Grandpa was a young man. Every bit as good, in many cases, and better in some.

 

[KingAndrew]

It sounds like there might be an opportunity for someone to create a few new, more distinctive blocks, to differentiate their product.

 

[fedoralover]

I recently saw another fepsa felt body made into a nice fedora. It didn't have to be pounced like you mentioned and it was very close to being just like one of my vintage felt fedora's. I'm glad Stetson is upping their game to compete. Winchester is still good and their beaver will still be a staple for hatters I'm sure, but like you said Tony the bar is definitely being raised.

fedoralover

 

[tonyb]

I had a similar thought, Andrew. Most mass-produced felt hats have the crown creases pressed in on shaped blocks. So for each style there has to be a complete set of blocks in the same shape but different sizes. So tooling up for distinctively novel crown shapes would be costly. If the factory anticipates producing thousands of each style, that cost could be easily justified. But it would be less feasible for a smaller manufacturer, especially if that new hat style might be seen as something of a gamble in the marketplace.

There's an almost infinite variety of hat styles, but it seems that only a few are produced in substantial quantities. Even a hat guy such as myself might not tell at first glance one of those smaller producer's Fepsa-bodied hats from another's.

 

[LuvMyMan]

Tony your inbox is full....lol!

 

[tonyb]

I recently saw another fepsa felt body made into a nice fedora. It didn't have to be pounced like you mentioned and it was very close to being just like one of my vintage felt fedora's. I'm glad Stetson is upping their game to compete. Winchester is still good and their beaver will still be a staple for hatters I'm sure, but like you said Tony the bar is definitely being raised.

fedoralover

I know that a very, very fine finish can be gotten out of a Winchester beaver body, a finish every bit as good as the high-end Fepsas, and arguably better, depending on who's doing the assessing and his or her criteria. And Fepsa apparently doesn't see the small-time custom hatter as part of its customer base. Small-timers do indeed get their hands on Fepsa bodies, but doing so involves jumping through hoops.

Giving Fepsa its due in no way diminishes my view of Winchester's product. But there is no doubt that making a good hat from a Winchester body involves more hands-on work.

 

[KingAndrew]

Your point about the expense of blocks is a good one, Tony. I guess any of these hatters looking to stand out might need to consider blocking the hats open crown and doing more personalized shaping by hand. I don't know how much demand there may be in this segment of the market for such things, however.

 

[Joshbru3]

I know that a very, very fine finish can be gotten out of a Winchester beaver body, a finish every bit as good as the high-end Fepsas, and arguably better, depending on who's doing the assessing and his or her criteria. And Fepsa apparently doesn't see the small-time custom hatter as part of its customer base. Small-timers do indeed get their hands on Fepsa bodies, but doing so involves jumping through hoops.

Giving Fepsa its due in no way diminishes my view of Winchester's product. But there is no doubt that making a good hat from a Winchester body involves more hands-on work.

Except a soft finish isn't everything. Can a very very fine finish be gotten out of a Wichester Beaver Body.....sure. But the color saturation is still bad and the shellac impregnation is still bad. Plus, as you have stated before, the hatter has to work much harder to achieve that finish on a Winchester body. So my question is.....why? Why bother with Winchester bodies if they are inferior to work with? Convenience? Every time I hear hatters defend their use of Winchester bodies I hear the same answer over and over again.....because they are easier to source. If that's the case, then fine, but let it be known that is the true reason. Most people I have talked to that have worked with Winchester and Fepsa bodies (including myself) pretty much always prefer the fepsa bodies. I am talking dress hat bodies here because the western stuff is a totally different animal entirely.

 

[tonyb]

Except a soft finish isn't everything. Can a very very fine finish be gotten out of a Wichester Beaver Body.....sure. But the color saturation is still bad and the shellac impregnation is still bad. Plus, as you have stated before, the hatter has to work much harder to achieve that finish on a Winchester body. So my question is.....why? Why bother with Winchester bodies if they are inferior to work with? Convenience? Every time I hear hatters defend their use of Winchester bodies I hear the same answer over and over again.....because they are easier to source. If that's the case, then fine, but let it be known that is the true reason. Most people I have talked to that have worked with Winchester and Fepsa bodies (including myself) pretty much always prefer the fepsa bodies. I am talking dress hat bodies here because the western stuff is a totally different animal entirely.

Fepsa makes a good product. So does Winchester. A person has to learn more to get good results from a Winchester body. I haven't found the color to be uneven, nor the stiffener. Sure, you can get mottling, if you over-pounce them, or pounce them unevenly. But I've ruined high quality vintage hat bodies by thinking (foolishly, as it turned out) that I should pounce them a bit more than the factory did, back before I was born. Yup, you get mottling that way. I strongly suspect the same would happen if you got a bit too energetic with a Fepsa body.

What's your point, Josh? That we should all abandon Winchester, because you are convinced that they are so clearly inferior to Fepsa? I readily acknowledge that Fepsa makes a very good product. Fepsa is a much larger concern, able to offer a much wider range of products. There's a lot to be said for that. I wouldn't hesitate recommending a person purchase a hat built on a Fepsa body.

So why bother with Winchester?, you ask. Because an excellent hat can be built on Winchester's all-beaver and beaver-blend bodies. Because their price is right. And yes, because a hatter can get his or her hands on their products without spending tens of thousands of dollars and waiting several months. And when you place an order with them, they take care of it right away and are happy for the business, be it ever so paltry. There is nothing at all dishonest in that, and if you took a personally detached view of your own commentary, you might see how any suggestion to the contrary might rub a person the wrong way.

 

[tonyb]

Oh, and another thing ... Winchester will accommodate their higher volume customers (that wouldn't be me) with special blends and weights and colors. They've done that for a hatter acquaintance of mine (a couple of 'em, come to think of it), to very good effect.

 

[Joshbru3]

A person has to learn more to get good results from a Winchester body.

Yes, because its an inferior product. If you block and pounce a Winchester body and then a Fepsa body for the exact same time in the exact same way, the Fepsa body will be nicer WITHOUT extra and unnecessary work.

I haven't found the color to be uneven, nor the stiffener. Sure, you can get mottling, if you over-pounce them, or pounce them unevenly. But I've ruined high quality vintage hat bodies by thinking (foolishly, as it turned out) that I should pounce them a bit more than the factory did, back before I was born. Yup, you get mottling that way. I strongly suspect the same would happen if you got a bit too energetic with a Fepsa body.

Yes, you can absolutely over pounce anything....vintage or modern....and still get mottling. I have ruined vintage hat bodies as well, as I am sure you have with over sanding. You are absolutely right about that. I completely disagree with you about the color saturation and shellac impregnation on Winchester bodies. If you are satisfied with them....then by all means continue using them.....but I am not one bit satisfied with Winchesters product. Also, the Winchester bodies are not felted as dense or worked as much as the Fepsa bodies. That was confirmed on a fedoralounge trip that I attended. Just look at the pictures of a finished hat. Forget the finish, I am not talking about softness or finish. Look at a finished hat made from a Winchester body....there are little pock marks in the felt (a key indicator of a lesser densely felted hat body)...no matter how soft the pounce. Now look at a finished hat that uses a Fepsa body...the surface of the felt is much more uniform and even.

What's your point, Josh? That we should all abandon Winchester, because you are convinced that they are so clearly inferior to Fepsa? I readily acknowledge that Fepsa makes a very good product. Fepsa is a much larger concern, able to offer a much wider range of products. There's a lot to be said for that. I wouldn't hesitate recommending a person purchase a hat built on a Fepsa body.

Tony, I have made my point time and time again. Frankly, I'm a bit tired of making it. An no...I am NOT the only one convinced that Fepsa makes a superior product. Numerous custom hatters agree and prefer to use Fepsa. Should everyone abandon Winchester...NO. But people should know that there are better hat bodies to be purchased than a 100% Winchester Beaver hat body which so many hatters on the lounge regard as the absolute gold standard....which it is most definitely not.

So why bother with Winchester?, you ask. Because an excellent hat can be built on Winchester's all-beaver and beaver-blend bodies. Because their price is right. And yes, because a hatter can get his or her hands on their products without spending tens of thousands of dollars and waiting several months. And when you place an order with them, they take care of it right away and are happy for the business, be it ever so paltry. There is nothing at all dishonest in that, and if you took a personally detached view of your own commentary, you might see how any suggestion to the contrary might rub a person the wrong way.

Exactly......Winchester bodies are OK, not great...they are easily sourced.....the price is right....and you would be buying from a smaller company....ALL are great reasons to buy from Winchester. Are they the best....NO. Are they felted as long or as dense as Fepsa......NO. Does a Winchester body require more work to get an OK outcome....YES. Do Fepsa bodies finish better....YES. Apples to Apples here shall we. If you and many hatters like using Winchester for a thousand different reasons, then fine.....continue using them. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else here on the lounge. Like I keep saying, the proof is in the pudding. Side by side, Fepsa wins...and NO Tony, that's not just my opinion. Sorry it rubs you the wrong way, but this is a side by side comparison of a product. I see nothing wrong there.

 

[hatsRme]

Tremendously interesting discussion, gents, and thanks for your experience. Important to point out that both of you agree that either Fepsa or Winchester produces a good, workable product, with the devil being in the details.

This begs the question, who uses what? If I inquire of a given hatter which felt he/she uses, would they answer? Or would the felt makers tell us who uses their products? Just curious.

 

[tonyb]

That's NOT your opinion, Josh? Really? All that verbiage is NOTHING BUT your opinion. It's a well-informed opinion, I'll give you that, but it's still just an opinion. And I believe it's an honest one, which is more than you'll grant to me.

I offer some favorable commentary of Fepsa's products and you take it as another opportunity to trash Winchester and impugn the motivations of those who continue using their product. And you don't see how that would rub a person the wrong way? Suppose I questioned your motives for your gushing review of that new Stetson given to you by Joseph aka Matt? That would kinda **** you off, wouldn't it?

 

[tonyb]

Tremendously interesting discussion, gents, and thanks for your experience. Important to point out that both of you agree that either Fepsa or Winchester produces a good, workable product, with the devil being in the details.

This begs the question, who uses what? If I inquire of a given hatter which felt he/she uses, would they answer? Or would the felt makers tell us who uses their products? Just curious.

I suspect that most would use Fepsa, given their druthers, because starting with a finished body is a lot less work. And it's remarkably easy to ruin a hat body. Learning how to get a consistently fine finish is among the more difficult skills a hatter has to learn, or, rather, once had to learn. If already-pounced bodies become the norm, well, there goes that claim to fame.

 

[Joshbru3]

That's NOT your opinion, Josh? Really? All that verbiage is NOTHING BUT your opinion. It's a well-informed opinion, I'll give you that, but it's still just an opinion. And I believe it's an honest one, which is more than you'll grant to me.

I offer some favorable commentary of Fepsa's products and you take it as another opportunity to trash Winchester and impugn the motivations of those who continue using their product. And you don't see how that would rub a person the wrong way? Suppose I questioned your motives for your gushing review of that new Stetson given to you Joseph aka Matt? That would kinda **** you off, wouldn't it?

Read what I actually wrote and not what you THOUGHT I wrote. All of that is MY OPINION but it is not JUST my opinion. My opinion is shared by many others who have had the opportunity to work with both products. You have your opinions....yes. You like Winchester.......let me say this for the absolutely FINAL time.......GOOD!!! I am glad you love Winchester, I am glad you give their products a chance, and I am glad that you continue on praising their workmanship. Continue on doing what you do. Never once did I critique your hats or your workmanship. I was stating facts about Winchester, and to be honest, without actually posting pictures and examples of the hats made with Winchester felts, I have taken a very general view about Winchesters products. If you want me to point out specifics on individual custom hats, I will be more than happy to do so in private.

You can question my motives about my Stetson review all you want Tony. Because there weren't any. I got a hat to review and I did that with complete honesty and integrity. That Stetson blows Winchesters felt out of the water. If you actually read my words instead of formulating your own ideas about what I say, you would have read that I compared the new Stetson felt to Fepsa's felt and found that they were very close. BOTH were miles better than Winchester. Suppose I question your integrity about praising Winchester felts? Maybe its because the hats you sell and make use Winchester hat bodies. I'm sure that would kinda **** you off wouldn't it.

 

[tonyb]

It this REALLY the "absolute final time," Josh? Really?

Please, make it so.

And, while you're busy shutting up, refrain from putting words in my or anyone else's mouth.

 

[Joshbru3]

It this REALLY the "absolute final time," Josh? Really?

Please, make it so.

And, while you're busy shutting up, refrain from putting words in my or anyone else's mouth.

You are a joke, Tony. Keep on making stupid comments like that. It just proves my point even more.