WW II Pilots wearing ties?

[dhermann1]

Jusr an errant thought that suddenly apeared between my ears a few moments ago. I was wondering how long the habit of wearing neckties in combat persisted among allied (and for that matter Axis) pilots during WW II. I was wondering (idle mind) if Douglas Bader would have been wearing a tie when he was shot down and captured by the Germans.
Any thoughts?

 

[dhermann1]

Anybody??? Buehler?

 

[Guttersnipe]

My Grandpa flew P-47s as part of the 9th AF in France from '44 through '45. in his photo album from France, neither he nor his pals seemed to wear ties. Not only was he the squadron's air XO responsible for enforcing discipline (the CO's "hammer" as he described it), but he was also regular U.S. Army, so that's probably telling.

 

[B-24J]

Ties

In, "Reach for the Sky", Bader does not mention wearing a tie at the time. He had a large cut under his chin and there is nothing about removing a tie. When he visits Adolph Galland at St. Omer, Bader is wearing his scarf tucked into his Battle Dress. I have seen other RAF pilots at this time wearing the scarf under the Battle Dress, but not a tie.

In photos before and after the Dams raid, Gibson is not wearing a tie. But it was a low level mission and I do not recall it being very cold weather. The movie has has him in a tie.

I know that sometime after the BoB the regulations forbade wearing scarves when NOT flying.

As for the Americans, I am mostly Bomber guy. Here I think it depended on the Dress of the Day as handed down by the CO.

For example, on the 300th mission of the 98th BG(H) CO Lt. Col. Manzo and crew are not wearing ties. This was a relatively low level mission on 13 September, 1944.
On the 400th mission Col. Manzo and the other officers are all wearing ties. The other crew members either have scarves or are too bundled up to see if they are wearing ties. This was a high level mission on the 22nd of March, 1944. It must have been even a chilly morning as at the mission briefing the Colonel is wearing his B-10 jacket. Incidently, the after mission photos show them still wearing their ties. So they were not removed during the mission.

Hope this helps,

John

 

[scotrace]

I think most of us assumed that since regs called for an ETO officer to be in uniform, and since being in uniform required a necktie, that they'd be in neckties.

 

[Peter_E]

This photo is taken from "ABC of the RAF" by John Hammerton, 1942 edition.
These pilots (AAF, not RAF, but to all intents the same thing) are wearing ties in their flying gear.

And, in this photo of an air-gunner it looks like he might be wearing his tie, but I'm not absolutely sure.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

Was it in the regulations, clearly yes. Was it enforced is the question really. Probably varied based on the C.O. and base location. If you were stationed on a major command base (8 AF) w/ all the Brass walking about perhaps. This would not be the same environment as being stationed in the (13th AF) jungles of the Solomon Islands. Many of the men in the forward bases lived out of tents and moved along w/ the troops (9th AF) providing air support.
Imho the rule would be, wear your correct uniform (no matter how ridiculous) for any press photo.
Notice the above photo's were posted in a magazine or news paper.

 

[dhermann1]

Does anyone else find this is fascinating as I do? They call the cockpit "the office", but wearing a tie in that office seems, I don't know, awfully old fashioned, but very cool.
As Fletch pointed out on that other new fangled social networking site, a necktie also made an excellent tourniquet.

 

[Peter_E]

....They call the cockpit "the office", but wearing a tie in that office seems, I don't know, awfully old fashioned, but very cool. ...

They had to wear their uniform. The uniform included a tie, ergo ... a tie shall be worn! I googled Battle of Britian pilots in google images, and many (most?) are shown wearing ties. The photos of Douglas Bader, Guy Gibson, and Richard Hillary also show ties in the ones where they are not wearing a scarf, which would cover the tie.

In the book I quoted from previously (ABC of the RAF - it's not a series of newspaper photos, Showsoemclass) does show RSAAF pilots wearing bush shirts with no ties in a tropical area, but that's what the tropics uniform was like, I think.

Ties in general were worn by most men. There is a short movie posted by Wiser Hatter depicting men working in a woolen mill in the 1940s, and they are wearing ties to work, underneath their shop-smocks.

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?73327-West-Riding-Life-of-a-Yorkshire-Family-1940-s

Men wore a tie when cutting the grass. A foreman at work in the machine shop I worked in as a younger person always wore a tie to work. It's just the way it was. It wasn't old fashioned.

 

[Peter_E]

Not to totally beat the topic to death, here is another period photo (that I personally doubt was staged) and the pilots are wearing ties when resting between sorties. Surely they didn't take them off to fly when they had to run for their planes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/topics/the_few


Now, this, of course, all pertains to the RAF. I couldn't possibly comment on any laxness of the USAF dress code

 

[Mojave Jack]

Although not necessarily related to the aviation in the theater, but Patton got quite upset when his troops in North Africa got lackadaisical about wearing their ties. He insisted that everyone wear their ties at all times. He was not alone in his enforcement of the regulations, either.

 

[SHOWSOMECLASS]

I believe this topic could diverge into two separate topics, either AAF or RAF.
W/ AAF we can provide pictures on the air strip/ run way proving the answer , yes they did wear them on air assignments or not.
If you or I were a pilot we would enter the plane wearing whatever our c.o. required.
After that remember only pictures or movies of people in actual combat document real life as a bomber air crew member or as a pilot.
Some firefighters launder their turn-out gear after each fire, others only launder it when they are required.
The middle ground is : most only comply w/ regulations when they want to or are required to do so.
Personally this is a dumb tired subject.
As any soldier will tell you, the c.o. will determine what will fly and the company sargeant will enforce his standards.
Some theaters India-Burma for example: have three weather seasons, wet, wet and humid, and wet and hot.
This tie discussion resembles what did officer pilots wear for jackets A2, B10. or B-3?
What did officers wear for head gear not for pictures but in combat. A leather helmet, a crusher, a garrison cap, nothing, or a cap of their hometown team or favorite college team.
TE=dhermann1;1668028]Jusr an errant thought that suddenly apeared between my ears a few moments ago. I was wondering how long the habit of wearing neckties in combat persisted among allied (and for that matter Axis) pilots during WW II. I was wondering (idle mind) if Douglas Bader would have been wearing a tie when he was shot down and captured by the Germans.
Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]

 

[dhermann1]

That was a little rude. . . .

 

[Edward]

I imagine for the RAF it varied a lot with location and theatre of war. Found this great photo on Google, which has a couple of variations - some with tie, some without:

I had the impression that as the RAF equivalent of Battledress came in later in the war, the tie began to fade out, but that's only an assumption based on how often I see rollneck sweaters and the likes worn with it in photos. I imagine this must have been the final conflict where anyone even thought of wearing a necktie into battle.

 

[Edward]

I imagine for the RAF it varied a lot with location and theatre of war. Found this great photo on Google, which has a couple of variations - some with tie, some without:

I had the impression that as the RAF equivalent of Battledress came in later in the war, the tie began to fade out, but that's only an assumption based on how often I see rollneck sweaters and the likes worn with it in photos. I imagine this must have been the final conflict where anyone even thought of wearing a necktie into battle.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Similar to the disdain WWI combat pilots held for constricting patrol collar tunics, (because they obstructed the free movement while swiveling around from side-to-side during horizontal scanning), WWII American pursuit pilots equally disliked ties. In the world of my Grandpa, (a thunderbolt veteran of WWII and a saber jet veteran of Korea), "the last place a fighter pilot should ever look while on patrol is his instrument cluster." Remember, the best method of detecting enemy aircraft in 1940s was still the mark 1 eyeball!

A picture is worth a thousand words:

Checkout the cockpit photo here too; no ties in sight.

 

[Stearmen]

It was WWI pilots that made the open collar jacket fashionable in most of the militaries of the world.

 

[Smithy]

At least in the RAF, the wearing of ties went on a swift decline from the Battle of France and during the Battle of Britain. Operational aircrew quickly used what was comfortable and useful and although initially this was against regulations, it was ignored by higher ranks. The only line I saw drawn was when Johnny Kent, taking over 92 Sqn, put the kibosh on wearing pyjamas underneath flying clothing.

Speaking of unconventional dress, Battle of Britain ace Tim Vigors was once scrambled to intercept a bandit wearing his dressing gown.

 

[Two Types]

The line about not wearing pyjamas under flight clothing reminds of the only order General Montgomery claimed to have issued with regard to uniforms:
"Top hats shall not be worn in the 8th Army."
(following an incident in Italy where a lorry driver, wearing only shorts and boots, doffed his Top Hat to greet Monty)

 

[Peter_E]

....The only line I saw drawn was when Johnny Kent, taking over 92 sign, put the kibosh on wearing pyjamas underneath flying clothing...

Well, of course pajamas were banned. Have you ever tried to wear a tie with the soft collar on a pajama jacket? It looks ridiculous!

That's "tongue-in-cheek", by the way, for the humor-challenged, literal folks among us.