Wouldn't it be a shame if this thread gets locked/removed too?

[Fonzie]

Team Jeo for the win!

 

[Fonzie]

Ps: trying to keep it lighthearted too!

 

[TooManyHatsOnlyOneHead]

Well you effectively said that my thread was "more of the same".

"Was it just another similar post with several other threads happening at the same time... If I'm being honest, then I would say yes it was."

That's what I was respectfully disagreeing with.

I was bringing something completely new to the table. Something that I believe is extremely valuable info to people here.

Well, you're taking select pieces. I also said... "I'm not saying the posts weren't valid or important, but I think it's more an issue of tidying up the posts"

And later said "Whether your thread needed it's own or could have been added to another is splitting hairs and a bit of red herring to be honest. Nonetheless, it needed to be said. But all I'm saying is I could see how some might not want several threads going at the same time on a similar topics."

These were in reference to the possible "excuse" that was being given for removing the thread hence the reference to a red herring. I think it's a BS excuse, obviously because the content could have been preserved and merged into one of the other threads. But at the same time I can understand how it was starting to get overwhelming with multiple threads in a short time span. So was it just a rush to pull the most recent thread for sake of tidiness? Was there more to it? I don't know, but as I've said, no disagreement in what you said or your right to say it. That's why I commented on that thread that Himmel needed to do better. And even if I may quibble about whether you should have started a new thread or just added to the thread about posting bad reviews public, that in no way supports the notion that it should be zapped into oblivion. At worst it should have been merged into whatever thread the admins felt it was most similar to if the tidiness is the issue.

 

[Tom71]

Once in a blue moon, a thread gets deleted bcause it is inevitably going to kick off, and we'd really rather it didn't.

@Edward:

Thanks for that explanation. That is indeed something, I hadn´t thought of.

This is the only social media platform I participate in, and I usually never comment on anything else than clothing. Plus I try to stick to the golden rule to be silent, unless you have something nice to say. My reason to post here is strictly personal:

I do own two Himel-jackets with which I am extremely pleased. Despite the heavy price, I may eventually go for a third one for a number of reasons eventually.
I have read @Carlos´ piece and due to the specifics of his case, I wasn´t really swayed in my appreciation of Himel. However, other info on product and customer service is clearly important, and I do feel that the deletion of @Jeo´s thread deprives me of that.

With your explanation, mods "preemtive strike" does not seem to me as the scandal it first may have appeared to be. Such actions still require a lot of speculation on the part of the mods as to what kind of post may become so uncivilized as to warrant a preemtive deletion (a bit like "Minority Report" wihtout the oracles...).
I would have thought that a bit more leniency in this specific case would have been better.Just my opinion, of course, and I too am more than happy for the "pro-bono" work you guys are doing for all of us (and in your case specifically the wealth of knowledge on punkrockk London too...!).

 

[navetsea]

yeah, since mods are all active members and we are pretty much all adult here, no active members make thread to troll around , when a thread is flagged by mod for deletion or merging, then the maker of the thread should have been contacted first through PM to learn more about their point of view, or the mod should have posted in the thread not as fellow user but in his role as a moderator and warn posters to play nice and not get too far into bashing, most time all it needs is a reminder, even adults can get too far if carried out by situation or the mood of the conversation, reminder from mod is often enough to tone it down.

 

[Carlos840]

In the case of Carlos and his Chevy , I felt the HB response was fair. For Jeo, it was piss poor. That’s something people should know going in.
The truth is my worst five star is sewn better, at 1/8 the cost

I don't want to reopen this tin of worms, don't feel like you have to respond, i just want the reason why i didn't go for a remake to be somewhere and my Chevalier thread is still locked.
My problem with their answer was that it assumed i would be ok spending more money on that jacket to get it fixed.
I spent 2700$ on that jacket taxes included, i spent that much because i was told i was getting "The BEST".
Two years later i am being told "sorry, we screwed up THE BEST, if you really want the best you have to spend another 800$"
IMO this is not fair in any way.

Add to that the fact that they had been using my pics for two years on their website, getting sales from me.
Add the fact that they had tried to force me into giving them full ownership of my pictures and of that review when i was kind enough to allow them to use it after posting it.
It just left a sour taste in my mouth...

Personally what is happening is a TFL deal killer for me.
I am done posting reviews or any information on TFL untill @jeo is allowed to post his thread.
If TFL doesn't want to see the bad reviews, it doesn't get the good reviews from me anymore.

 

[jeo]

Well, you're taking select pieces. I also said... "I'm not saying the posts weren't valid or important, but I think it's more an issue of tidying up the posts"

And later said "Whether your thread needed it's own or could have been added to another is splitting hairs and a bit of red herring to be honest. Nonetheless, it needed to be said. But all I'm saying is I could see how some might not want several threads going at the same time on a similar topics."

These were in reference to the possible "excuse" that was being given for removing the thread hence the reference to a red herring. I think it's a BS excuse, obviously because the content could have been preserved and merged into one of the other threads. But at the same time I can understand how it was starting to get overwhelming with multiple threads in a short time span. So was it just a rush to pull the most recent thread for sake of tidiness? Was there more to it? I don't know, but as I've said, no disagreement in what you said or your right to say it. That's why I commented on that thread that Himmel needed to do better. And even if I may quibble about whether you should have started a new thread or just added to the thread about posting bad reviews public, that in no way supports the notion that it should be zapped into oblivion. At worst it should have been merged into whatever thread the admins felt it was most similar to if the tidiness is the issue.

Fair enough.

I didn’t want to create a new thread. I wanted to post in the “hype” thread. I couldn’t.

I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, IMO it was locked too soon. It wasn’t going in a negative direction and it wasn’t going in circles.

I immensely respect and appreciate what the mods do but the fact that they keep on avoiding talking about my thread and cannot give a good explanation as to why it was deleted IMO shows that they got it wrong this time.

@Edward and @Peacoat again I am asking for a reasonable explanation for why my thread was deleted. So far the explanation I was given that it is not ok to start a new thread on the same topic after one was closed is unsatisfactory and that I was bashing manufacturers is untrue. I urge you to reconsider and allow me to either post again or revive my thread.

 

[jeo]

I've seen Jeo's thread and thought hmm strange maybe it was quietly taken cared off through PMs between him and the manufacturer so the OP took down his own thread, didn't think mod took it down and the stitching along the main zip on the leather facing side is obviously wonky and easily get filtered by QC if they want to throw away a thin strip of shinki and replace the facing with another, or do something at least acknowledge it when sending the product to see if the customer is willing to accept it as is or need a fix. in the end everyone is judged by their own claims, talk the talk walk the walk style.

despite the name "forum" they are privately owned, and not a democratic place at heart, sure we can voice our opinions but in the end it is like we are guesses at someone else's open house party.
moderators keeping things in balance since it is also important for the forum to stay alive with many traffics or new member to join to gain adv revenue to keep it free and a leveled playing field to everyone, otherwise they would need donations from members to stay afloat and people who donate get a special something in return and that get downward spiraled.

so my take on this... calm your heart everyone, chill, just say BOOO, and shrug it off... keep it light hearted

Definitely didn’t make my thread with the intention of coercing the manufacturer into doing anything. If that was the case I would have posted two years ago. So even if I was contacted privately I wouldn’t have taken down my own thread. And if I am eventually ever contacted and offered anything I’m going to decline. I didn’t want a remake back then and I don’t want a remake now. I just wanted to share my experience, let everyone know what happened and for Himel to stand behind his work. In my case he didn’t.

It wasn’t just the facing, there were many more instances of horrible stitch work throughout and two different collar shapes. I only sent Himel a pic of the chest pocket. That mistake isn’t easily filtered by QC. That one is in your face obvious. That should have been enough, but was given excuses.

I agree with you though, TFL is privately owned and completely understand the need to keep traffic coming through but don’t think the “hype” “error” or my thread would have done anything to jeopardize that. There also needs to be just moderation. The mods get it right the vast majority of the time. Again, IMO they got it wrong this time.

 

[navetsea]

imo mod should give you permission to revive your old thread with a different title, just the name of the jacket, everyone is allowed to review a jacket model, and if in the body of the review the maker is mentioned then it is only normal, or if the review shows wonky stitches, it would not be the first review showing wonky stitches around here . I believe every active member and mods already read this topic, and people who would read and comment in your thread would be these same people, I don't see how it is possible to get any wilder or grow from bush fire into a firestorm.

yeah I now remember the shape of your collar is not symmetrical on the left and right that is also very obvious.

 

[jeo]

Personally what is happening is a TFL deal killer for me.
I am done posting reviews or any information on TFL untill @jeo is allowed to post his thread.
If TFL doesn't want to see the bad reviews, it doesn't get the good reviews from me anymore.

Thank you brother! This statement and your post https://www.thefedoralounge.com/threads/himel-bros-chevalier-bis.93446/page-6#post-2784830
speaks to your amazing character. Thank you for all your help and support!

 

[Monitor]

Gotta say here that the fact that this thread is allowed to go on speaks volumes of TFL mods. This woulda get canned on most other forums with at least three banned accounts. We got some good guys running this board here, something anyone who's ever moderated an internet forum can see.

imo mod should give you permission to revive your old thread with a different title, just the name of the jacket, everyone is allowed to review a jacket model, and if in the body of the review the maker is mentioned then it is only normal, or if the review shows wonky stitches, it would not be the first review showing wonky stitches around here . I believe every active member and mods already read this topic, and people who would read and comment in your thread would be these same people, I don't see how it is possible to get any wilder or grow from bush fire into a firestorm.

^ This.

While everything has been said already, thing is, regardless of how much time has passed since @jeo got that jacket & was brushed off by the maker, that jacket still exists & remains a true issue here, one that can only be resolved issuing out a remake or a full refund - Even if Jeo declines the offer, which is perfectly understandable.

The fact that the maker tried to brush off the affair is the reason why @jeo's thread about it absolutely needs to exist, regardless if things ultimately get resolved.
'cause I personally would like to be aware whether my purchase might include some additional albeit manageable drama.

Maker in question can do fantastic work, that's obvious by now, too and what has happened here has only been a disservice primarily to their fans so... It's time this gets sorted out, if for none else's sake then at least for Himel Bros.

 

[Edward]

@Edward if the timing of @jeo 's thread is the issue, which it seems to be, would he be able to share that information in the future at some time?

'User reviews' are a big part of what these forums run on; if people want to review what they've bought - good and bad - going forward after the dust has settled, I don't see a problem with that.
There was in this instance a question of timing, and of perhaps phrasing, which kicked in here.

Most of the time it should be obvious why a thread gets deleted or edited; it's a far point that occasionally (pressures of time, usually) we could be better at letting the poster know why the decision was taken. (Not that that should be interpreted as the opening of negotiation...). That's a useful feedback to have which we can take forward.

But yeah, considering how much time I spend on clothes, I can say that clothes are my life. And... I'm fine with that. That's okay.

Ha! Yeah..... I've been thinking a lot recently about how much clothes are a part of identity. Was in my head last week when I was standing at a monument for the Dockworkers in London, c1860-1983 and looking at how they are depicted being dressed, compared to workwear as fashionwear, and ergo identity politics (I'm sure we discussed on a thread on TFL years ago about the notion that white-collar people adopting blue collar workwear were searching for a sense of legitimacy/authenticity).

I'm usually fine with it myself until I start to double think about consumerism... Way I justify this "hobby" and spending has long been 'well, I need clothes. Nobody really needs a bit collection of [ephemera X]".

I DO have a life, I actually come to TFL to escape from it.
With or without emojis, your comment reads very condescending.

My apologies if it was taken that way. What I really should have typed was probably "I need to get a life", but at the end of a twelve hour day on the day-job, I'm less articulate than ideal.

Ps: trying to keep it lighthearted too!

Appreciated.

With your explanation, mods "preemtive strike" does not seem to me as the scandal it first may have appeared to be. Such actions still require a lot of speculation on the part of the mods as to what kind of post may become so uncivilized as to warrant a preemtive deletion (a bit like "Minority Report" wihtout the oracles...).
I would have thought that a bit more leniency in this specific case would have been better.Just my opinion, of course, and I too am more than happy for the "pro-bono" work you guys are doing for all of us (and in your case specifically the wealth of knowledge on punkrockk London too...!).

As with so many things, a lot of moderation decisions have a subjective element inevitably. We always try to make the best call we can in the situation, though alas we cannot guarantee it will always be the popular choice. Nature of the beast, I suppose. We try.

yeah, since mods are all active members and we are pretty much all adult here, no active members make thread to troll around , when a thread is flagged by mod for deletion or merging, then the maker of the thread should have been contacted first through PM to learn more about their point of view, or the mod should have posted in the thread not as fellow user but in his role as a moderator and warn posters to play nice and not get too far into bashing, most time all it needs is a reminder, even adults can get too far if carried out by situation or the mood of the conversation, reminder from mod is often enough to tone it down.

All fair points. These things are often done - sometimes it can be a question of available time. There's not somebody on here moderating all hours of the day, so it can on occasion be the case that suddenly you've got six pages to deal with if something kicks off, and it may already be beyond that stage.

One thing I have appreciated recently is that folks in general have been great with the 'report' facility. We don't summarily delete every reported post (spam aside: spammers immediately have their posts deleted and all threads removed), but it gets our attention and a decision is made. It's immensely helpful when, rather than a huge argument kicking off, people report something they find offensive or know to be outside the rules. Y'all have been especially helpful on this recently with both spammers and one troll who seemed only to be interested in provoking an argument: it saved enormous time for us in clearing up these to just have it reported and nipped in the bud. Thanks for that those involved.

 

[navetsea]

maybe if it is a timing issue or the topic get too hot, then the thread can be temporarily timed out, maybe with standard message about that to tell the people to cool down and to be reopened later, I remember last time there was a thread that went that way. I thought that was a proper handling.

BTW many Thanks to all the mods team for their effort to keep this place a pleasant place to be, I can come here anytime knowing there won't be too much of drama.

 

[MrProper]

After many comments, I think we can agree on the application of the prime directive:

"Regardless of what we discover, we understand and truly believe that everyone did the best job they could, given what they knew at the time, their skills and abilities, the resources available, and the situation at hand."

 

[antoine p]

It is clear how users feel about the moderation decisions.
Appreciative of their general work and what they help sustain here! Appreciative of their contributions as users!
But that the thread locks and deletions and most of all the lack of transparency and communication surrounding them are unacceptable.

This very well may not be the case, but to users, it looks like the moderation is in cahoots with a vendor. Documentation of a negative experience was erased, and a thread was locked because it took on a critical element. Again, this may not be the case, and I don't think it actually is, but I believe the onus is on the moderation to clear this up.
I think we should all take an eye towards deescalating the situation. There is a longstanding agreement between the moderators and users here! It should be preserved! It is important to build a bridge before the seed of distrust grows, there will be negative consequences otherwise.

I feel the most important challenge we are facing here is the question of whether critical reviews are allowed on the board. Can trusted, longterm users share their unvarnished experiences with makers on here? If so, and if this was an issue of perceived dogpiling or of organization, I am confident that the community can move forwards- let's talk about what happened and learn from it.
If critical reviews are not allowed on here, we're having a different conversation- see the ultimatum above by @Carlos840, undoubtedly one of the forums greatest assets. I wasn't able to read the thread that was deleted. Can the experience @jeo wrote about be posted to TFL? Or is that off-limits? If so, I think users will have to make a choice about whether a site that filters through negatives with certain makers and not others is worth contributing to. We don't want to be in that position!

Again, I have extreme appreciation for the moderation on the site. But please, a unified response to the concerns raised by users today and yesterday would go a long way. We want to know we are being taken seriously!

Help us deescalate this and preserve this glorious online clothing community- nothing about this site should be taken for granted.

 

[antoine p]

I also want to note- of course, mistakes happen, and I feel confident that the users here understand this. The rapport has been too good for too long for an honest mistake to cause a major schism. If there was an error in decision making, let's talk about it and learn from it, we have to be understanding and compassionate. What we've got going deserves it.

 

[Brandrea33]

Sadly, I missed Jeo’s thread entirely, but I can imagine from what’s already been written here that it wasn’t a positive review of Himel’s work or customer service.

I’m sorry to hear that @jeo

 

[Monitor]

It is clear how users feel about the moderation decisions.
Appreciative of their general work and what they help sustain here! Appreciative of their contributions as users!
But that the thread locks and deletions and most of all the lack of transparency and communication surrounding them are unacceptable.

This very well may not be the case, but to users, it looks like the moderation is in cahoots with a vendor. Documentation of a negative experience was erased, and a thread was locked because it took on a critical element. Again, this may not be the case, and I don't think it actually is, but I believe the onus is on the moderation to clear this up.
I think we should all take an eye towards deescalating the situation. There is a longstanding agreement between the moderators and users here! It should be preserved! It is important to build a bridge before the seed of distrust grows, there will be negative consequences otherwise.

I feel the most important challenge we are facing here is the question of whether critical reviews are allowed on the board. Can trusted, longterm users share their unvarnished experiences with makers on here? If so, and if this was an issue of perceived dogpiling or of organization, I am confident that the community can move forwards- let's talk about what happened and learn from it.
If critical reviews are not allowed on here, we're having a different conversation- see the ultimatum above by @Carlos840, undoubtedly one of the forums greatest assets. I wasn't able to read the thread that was deleted. Can the experience @jeo wrote about be posted to TFL? Or is that off-limits? If so, I think users will have to make a choice about whether a site that filters through negatives with certain makers and not others is worth contributing to. We don't want to be in that position!

Again, I have extreme appreciation for the moderation on the site. But please, a unified response to the concerns raised by users today and yesterday would go a long way. We want to know we are being taken seriously!

Help us deescalate this and preserve this glorious online clothing community- nothing about this site should be taken for granted.

Very well said.

 

[antoine p]

Very well said.

Thank you @Monitor. Doesn’t need to be said but you too are one of the forum’s greatest assets. Your word carries weight around here, and your efforts at mending this are appreciated.

 

[Kubatu]

My $0.02 is pretty much what someone else said in this thread, which is why not just make the post public again, but lock it? If the intent is to preemptively stop a thread from devolving into nastiness, doesn't locking a thread do that just as well as deleting it, without the side effect of completely removing a justified, albeit negative, review?

Some people would likely still not be satisfied, for understandable reasons (the thread would get buried pretty quick), but it would still be there for the record. I feel like this would still be a reasonable approach to take if the staff still believe there should not be any discussion on the thread itself.