Wouldn't it be a shame if this thread gets locked/removed too?

[Colin G]

Closing a thread that has been perceived to end its run means every other thread about Aero or Thedi or whatever should get locked too. Those threads get repeated far more than any discussion about crooked stitching.

 

[Mich486]

One moderator says the thread has been locked because has run its course (whatever that means) and another moderator instead says that it’s been locked because it needs to be pruned of inaccuracies and then it’ll be re-opened (?). It seems like 2 different messages to me...

I’m certainly grateful for the unpaid job you guys do (although in this instance we are asking you to do nothing ) but wouldn’t be easier to let discussions evolve as they do and just intervene to keep the discussion civil. In my experience this is very very rarely needed.

If inaccuracies are posted you can always step in and clarify things, you are also members after all. If threads have run their course well... nobody will post there anymore.

Ultimately you’ll do what you see fit but I think most members don’t find the invisible hand approach particularly fair. Hence why you are seeing this string of complains.

 

[willyto]

Nice! I stopped participating in some vintage FB groups because of overzelaous admins and now it looks like the safe haven that was TFL outerwear is going in the same direction, censor and delete threads/posts.

You don't want the outerwear section to end up like the vintage subforum, a desert with no activity.

Some people really like to spoil the fun and discourage honesty between users regarding makers looks like.

Delete threads? Really? I log off from the forum for 3-4 days and I miss apparently a nice piece of information.

 

[Superfluous]

"As a reminder: Once a thread is locked, an end run may not be made by starting a new thread on basically the same topic. That new thread will be summarily deleted."

Respectfully, this explanation is unavailing.

@jeo's thread was not "an end run" on the closed thread, nor "basically on the same topic." Rather, @jeo was sharing his unique experience -- an experience that had not been mentioned in the prior thread.

The prior thread was about the OP's experience with Himel and the over-hyping of certain manufacturers. @jeo elected not to share his own personal experiences with Himel in that thread. Why you ask? Because, given the harsh criticism shared by others, @jeo was concerned that he would be adding fuel to the fire in that thread and dog-piling on Himel. @jeo wanted to be respectful to Himel, even though Himel was not respectful to him. @jeo wanted to honor the etiquette and mutual respect that are the cornerstones of TFL.

Rather than dog-pile on Himel in the existing thread, @jeo reached out to @Carlos840 and I and solicited our opinions on how to best handle the matter. Both @Carlos840 and I urged @jeo to post his unique experiences because, among other things, his experiences serve to educate the TFL community and inform prospective buyers who deserve to know the truth.

After trying mightily to proceed in an honorable and respectful manner, @jeo finally opened up about his unique experience with Himel. Rather than dog-pile in an existing thread, @jeo did the appropriate thing and started his own thread to address his own, unique experience. It was not “an end run” nor “basically on the same topic.” Rather, @jeo took the time to draft a long and detailed post, supported with extensive photographs, setting forth his unique experience with Himel regarding his individual jacket. @jeo endeavored to educate the TFL community. He did so in a respectful manner that embodied everything good about TFL.

And how was @jeo rewarded for his efforts? His thread – that he spent considerable time assembling – was promptly and unceremoniously eliminated. Not merely locked, but rather, completely eradicated -- as though it never existed. To make matters worse, no explanation was offered. The thread just disappeared.

I greatly admire, respect, and appreciate the wonderful bartenders of TFL, who devote so much of their time to the betterment of our community. Their passion and commitment is invaluable and I am sincerely grateful. Moreover, with very, very few exceptions, they get it right time and time again. That said, IMHO, this is one of the very rare instances where they got it wrong.

The notion that a manufacturer can somehow became off-limits, and immune from criticism, simply because they were recently discussed in a different thread, is not a well-conceived principle. Had @jeo simply extended the same discussion from the locked thread in a new thread, I would agree with the Mods’ decision to shut down the new thread. However, that is NOT what @jeo did. His thread was not, by any stretch of the imagination, an effort to extend the previously locked thread. Rather, it was a brand new topic, namely his own personal experience with Himel regarding his individual jacket. @jeo should not be barred from posting his unique experience simply because others shared their unique experiences in a different thread. Likewise, Himel does not get a pass because he was throttled in a different thread, based on his performance with different jackets. Rather, Himel must face the music regarding @jeo’s unique experience concerning his individual jacket.

Perhaps most importantly, the TFL community has a right to know about @jeo ’s experience, so that subsequent purchasers are fully informed and can make informed decisions regarding which manufacturers to patronize. By eliminating @jeo ’s thread – not merely locking it, but eradicating it – the Mods denied the TFL community the important data proffered by @jeo. The TFL community is now less informed. That is a real shame.

None of us are perfect and even the superlative Mods occasionally err. “To err is human.” ~Alexander Pope. “An error does not become a mistake until you refuse to correct it.” ~ John F. Kennedy. It is not too late to prevent a mistake. All you have to do is revive @jeo’s thread.

 

[Marc mndt]

Like @Superfluous I consider jeo's deleted thread unrelated to other threads that were locked because of whatever reason and I still haven't heard/read any explanation on the deletion of jeo's thread.

Maybe it's best to just consider the deletion of @jeo thread a one-time mistake.

Would it be an idea to create a new thread where we discuss Jeo's experience.

If it is deleted once again, we'll know it's apparently not allowed to have an open discussion on makers' product quality and after-sales here on TFL.

Edit : typo

 

[air]

Mods could be concerned about the kind of user and traffic that is attracted to the site. Hosting a lot of "product reviews" can have the unintended effect of gathering users sent by the manufacturers to leave themselves good reviews, or even worse, slander the competition.

As it is TFL pops up very high in search engines, in duckduckgo searching for "thedi leather grizzly" TFL is the 3rd link, searching for "cal leather" images, the 2nd image is from TFL and the 4th is @ton312 wearing one of his. As the community becomes more visible to users the risk of people joining in bad faith increases.

I don't know how many new users we are getting nor what controls mods have in place to keep the peace, I am sure they have some seeing as usually there are barely any traces of moderation. In fact most of the time fellow users can control the situation without the need for mod intervention, further proof that problematic users are concerned enough about attracting the mods that they would rather listen to their equals.

However I agree with the sentiment in this thread that "finishing" topics like manufacturer reviews, that are by their own nature ongoing is not a solution, although I can't offer one either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ton312]

Mods could be concerned about the kind of user and traffic that is attracted to the site. Hosting a lot of "product reviews" can have the unintended effect of gathering users sent by the manufacturers to leave themselves good reviews, or even worse, slander the competition.

As it is TFL pops up very high in search engines, in duckduckgo searching for "thedi leather grizzly" TFL is the 3rd link, searching for "cal leather" images, the 2nd image is from TFL and the 4th is @ton312 wearing one of his. As the community becomes more visible to users the risk of people joining in bad faith increases.

I don't know how many new users we are getting nor what controls mods have in place to keep the peace, I am sure they have some seeing as usually there are barely any traces of moderation. In fact most of the time fellow users can control the situation without the need for mod intervention, further proof that problematic users are concerned enough about attracting the mods that they would rather listen to their equals.

However I agree with the sentiment in this thread that "finishing" topics like manufacturer reviews, that are by their own nature ongoing is not a solution, although I can't offer one either ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

If you really want to have fun, google Aero Bootlegger or Vanson model E

 

[dannyk]

Thing that gets me....we’ve picked apart Schott jackets for sure. We’ve torn apart Aero jackets many times over the years. And aero has people on this forum. Monitor had a good and justified rant against LW. But it’s Himel that causes an issue. I get the redundancy thing and how it’s “the same”....to a small degree. but just don’t like how this one feels.

 

[handymike]

...let’s not even talk about the “Goodwear-abouts” thread.

I totally understand the edits when a thread becomes hostile and belligerent like certain BK and SB ones though.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Now I'm just really sad that I never got to see @jeo 's thread. As someone who has bought from Himel before and would possibly do so again, I would really want to know about customer experiences with anyone that I would potentially purchase from.

 

[dwilson]

I saw it and was somewhat confused it was taken down. I falsely assumed the OP took it down himself not sure why the mods would take it down. He had very clear and very good evidence of subpar construction on his jacket.

 

[Edward]

Frankly, sometimes we all need to get a life. Seriously. It's only clothes.

And why was the Chevalier bis thread locked without any single explanation (an excuse was given many hours later and only when we complained about it).

A lot of nerves are frayed by the pandemic. There was no excuse on that thread. There was a reason.

Sometimes, threads get closed because of posts that are beyond the pale getting deleted. It's very rare, but it can happen - some years ago we had posts that had to be deleted because of potential libel concerns, hate speech, contempt of court...

Once in a blue moon, a thread gets deleted bcause it is inevitably going to kick off, and we'd really rather it didn't.

From the other closed thread:
"As a reminder: Once a thread is locked, an end run may not be made by starting a new thread on basically the same topic. That new thread will be summarily deleted."

The question is who decides or what are the criteria for everything being said in a thread and that it can be closed?
If a new thread arises immediately after closing a thread, then there still seems to be a need for discussion.
Why do the moderators step in when the participants exchange their opinions in a peaceful and civilized manner? If decency and morality are violated, that is of course something else. But that wasn’t here

Sometimes it's pre-emptive, which is asad necessity in this world. We all have limited time, and dayjobs which actually pay. In this case, it was right on the heels of a heated discussion wihch was gonig round in circleswith the same points made. The original thread got very toxic. Sadly, history shows these things repeat if they appear in quick succesion.

You'd be surpsied how often a thread can go round and round in circles addingnothing new but driving other, new content down the board. Nature of the web to some extent.

In the past, mods have “cleaned up” or “removed” certain posts, but kept the original thread in-tact.
I feel this is an appropriate way to handle the long standing Chevalier thread.
It is a valuable insight into a jacket buyer’s experience, and should survive IMHO.

It's not gone away - it's still availble. We do occasionally close threads so they can be pruned, or for a bit of cooling off (another thread this last week was temporarily paused for that reason. It's now available again, and has continued positively). Alas, we don't always have time (day jobs, lives, families...) to do everything at once. A thread gone bad can add six pages overnight. *sometimes* the only effective management is to pause so we can find the time to deal with it.

I’m an admin on some FB pages. One in particular is politically oriented. That leads to some heated discussions. Especially with FBs ever changing clampdown rules on language and political affiliations.
So first let me say I’ve never had an issue with the admins/mods on this page. In fact I’ve asked for their help once or twice and they’ve responded wonderfully. They have been nothing short of great.
But secondarily as and admin on that page I absolutely delete harmful language or dangerous links. But if things go off the rails or run their course we have decided to leave them up-and leave an official admin comment stating why they’ve been locked; then lock them. We want people to see what went down, why it’s wrong, what can be learned from it; and to preserve the comments and thoughts that did not violate anything. I think going forward if the admins/mods of this page could adopt that tactic it would be most beneficial. It seems there is agreement on this. It’s a hard job because when you’re doing it right you don’t get much thanks. When you do it right, most people won’t even know you’re doing anything at all. When a mistake is made it makes it seem like you’re terrible and awful. That’s why I wanted to thank you and take the time to express that thought. You guys have done great. But I would recommend thinking about what we’ve done on my FB group and seeing if it can be applied here.

Thank-you. I know the group you mean. To some extent, we do prunea bit more in this place for the simple reason that many people in any online community do emulate the 'norm' of posting style - sometimes leaving stuff up for that reason is asking for trouble. (We've also pruned for legal reasons in the past, or to prevent an ot unpleasantness from derailing a thread).

Interrestingly, my review of the Chevalier was also removed from the Himel website without me having asked anything.
The Himel website mentioned the review in question was originally posted on TFL, so anybody seeing it on the Himel website could have come to TFL and seen the updated pic version.
A closed thread dies and sinks to the bottom, i think someone just wanted that thread gone forever.
And it just happens that we are currently not allowed to post pics of Himel jackets or discuss them in any way.
Weird coincidence...

No coincidence at all; Himel interacted with the original "overhyped" thread, so they would have seen your thoughts there. I can only assume they decided not to use youtr endorsement seeing as it's effectively been withdrawn? That would make sense for a number of reasons. (I don't know how they presented it over there - in truth I've never looked at the Himel website, they're out of my price range.)

The thread hasn't gone anywhere; it's still available - it'll always show up on Google. Only deleted threads, which this wasn't, 'disappear' from a search.

Closing a thread that has been perceived to end its run means every other thread about Aero or Thedi or whatever should get locked too. Those threads get repeated far more than any discussion about crooked stitching.

I think the misconception is that it was the subject matter was an issue; it was strictly in the context of a thread where tempers had flared and the issue was being immediately reopened, with the inevitable going the same way. Ever tried to open the same conversation that led to a heated argument with someone five minutes later, as compared to after everyone has had time to cool off?

One moderator says the thread has been locked because has run its course (whatever that means) and another moderator instead says that it’s been locked because it needs to be pruned of inaccuracies and then it’ll be re-opened (?). It seems like 2 different messages to me...

Two different threads.

I’m certainly grateful for the unpaid job you guys do (although in this instance we are asking you to do nothing ) but wouldn’t be easier to let discussions evolve as they do and just intervene to keep the discussion civil. In my experience this is very very rarely needed.

Rarely, but it is sadly sometimes necessary. Inevitably, not everyone will agree with when that is.

Ultimately you’ll do what you see fit but I think most members don’t find the invisible hand approach particularly fair. Hence why you are seeing this string of complains.

The apparent confusion over what a 'vendor' is round here seemed also to contribute.

TFL does try to be as transparent as possible; at the same time, occasionally keeping up with things is enough of a challenge. We do also tend to assume in many cases that people will understand what has happened. Political comments deleted - does anyone really not know about the no politics rule by now? I've had people in the past report a post, then complain that their response to said unacceptable post was deleted along with the post... *Sometimes* it does help to think for a minute.

 

[Jin431]

The jacket construction is underwhelming, aside from the nice medium brown shinki used and it would not warrant the premium that was paid. I think the biggest issue though is the makers response then when it was first brought up that the leather was slippery and they would do better moving forward blah blah (not taking responsibility for it) and now claiming they always take responsibility (remake/refund) for QC issues that arises takes the cake in how disappointing this whole affair for @jeo really is.

 

[dannyk]

Frankly, sometimes we all need to get a life. Seriously. It's only clothes.



A lot of nerves are frayed by the pandemic. There was no excuse on that thread. There was a reason.

Sometimes, threads get closed because of posts that are beyond the pale getting deleted. It's very rare, but it can happen - some years ago we had posts that had to be deleted because of potential libel concerns, hate speech, contempt of court...

Once in a blue moon, a thread gets deleted bcause it is inevitably going to kick off, and we'd really rather it didn't.



Sometimes it's pre-emptive, which is asad necessity in this world. We all have limited time, and dayjobs which actually pay. In this case, it was right on the heels of a heated discussion wihch was gonig round in circleswith the same points made. The original thread got very toxic. Sadly, history shows these things repeat if they appear in quick succesion.

You'd be surpsied how often a thread can go round and round in circles addingnothing new but driving other, new content down the board. Nature of the web to some extent.



It's not gone away - it's still availble. We do occasionally close threads so they can be pruned, or for a bit of cooling off (another thread this last week was temporarily paused for that reason. It's now available again, and has continued positively). Alas, we don't always have time (day jobs, lives, families...) to do everything at once. A thread gone bad can add six pages overnight. *sometimes* the only effective management is to pause so we can find the time to deal with it.



Thank-you. I know the group you mean. To some extent, we do prunea bit more in this place for the simple reason that many people in any online community do emulate the 'norm' of posting style - sometimes leaving stuff up for that reason is asking for trouble. (We've also pruned for legal reasons in the past, or to prevent an ot unpleasantness from derailing a thread).



No coincidence at all; Himel interacted with the original "overhyped" thread, so they would have seen your thoughts there. I can only assume they decided not to use youtr endorsement seeing as it's effectively been withdrawn? That would make sense for a number of reasons. (I don't know how they presented it over there - in truth I've never looked at the Himel website, they're out of my price range.)

The thread hasn't gone anywhere; it's still available - it'll always show up on Google. Only deleted threads, which this wasn't, 'disappear' from a search.



I think the misconception is that it was the subject matter was an issue; it was strictly in the context of a thread where tempers had flared and the issue was being immediately reopened, with the inevitable going the same way. Ever tried to open the same conversation that led to a heated argument with someone five minutes later, as compared to after everyone has had time to cool off?



Two different threads.



Rarely, but it is sadly sometimes necessary. Inevitably, not everyone will agree with when that is.



The apparent confusion over what a 'vendor' is round here seemed also to contribute.

TFL does try to be as transparent as possible; at the same time, occasionally keeping up with things is enough of a challenge. We do also tend to assume in many cases that people will understand what has happened. Political comments deleted - does anyone really not know about the no politics rule by now? I've had people in the past report a post, then complain that their response to said unacceptable post was deleted along with the post... *Sometimes* it does help to think for a minute.

Thanks for taking the time. As I said you do good work. I didn’t see the thread in question so I feel I’m missing all the context. I don’t know what happened or why. That’s why I said maybe best to leave things like that up. Because half the group now feels like what the hell happened and why did anything happen? Breeds distrust. But like you said it is clothes. This ain’t a hill I’m going to die on. It doesn’t ruin my life. But just a thought to avoid drama. You’ve always been a well involved admin here and are one of the admins I asked for help before who answered promptly and solved my issue. So again I do thank you for what you do.

 

[Jin431]

Frankly, sometimes we all need to get a life. Seriously. It's only clothes.

Agreed on both subjects especially the "it's only clothes part" but that's an investment in itself with the amount paid for it; i only hope that what happened to @jeo would not happen again to other consumers (especially TFL members) and that he is still able share his experience here.

*i appreciate the time you give and all the things that you do for TFL community. All the insight/info you have shared have been of immense help to me and others here.

 

[Superfluous]

Frankly, sometimes we all need to get a life. Seriously. It's only clothes.



A lot of nerves are frayed by the pandemic. There was no excuse on that thread. There was a reason.

Sometimes, threads get closed because of posts that are beyond the pale getting deleted. It's very rare, but it can happen - some years ago we had posts that had to be deleted because of potential libel concerns, hate speech, contempt of court...

Once in a blue moon, a thread gets deleted bcause it is inevitably going to kick off, and we'd really rather it didn't.



Sometimes it's pre-emptive, which is asad necessity in this world. We all have limited time, and dayjobs which actually pay. In this case, it was right on the heels of a heated discussion wihch was gonig round in circleswith the same points made. The original thread got very toxic. Sadly, history shows these things repeat if they appear in quick succesion.

You'd be surpsied how often a thread can go round and round in circles addingnothing new but driving other, new content down the board. Nature of the web to some extent.



It's not gone away - it's still availble. We do occasionally close threads so they can be pruned, or for a bit of cooling off (another thread this last week was temporarily paused for that reason. It's now available again, and has continued positively). Alas, we don't always have time (day jobs, lives, families...) to do everything at once. A thread gone bad can add six pages overnight. *sometimes* the only effective management is to pause so we can find the time to deal with it.



Thank-you. I know the group you mean. To some extent, we do prunea bit more in this place for the simple reason that many people in any online community do emulate the 'norm' of posting style - sometimes leaving stuff up for that reason is asking for trouble. (We've also pruned for legal reasons in the past, or to prevent an ot unpleasantness from derailing a thread).



No coincidence at all; Himel interacted with the original "overhyped" thread, so they would have seen your thoughts there. I can only assume they decided not to use youtr endorsement seeing as it's effectively been withdrawn? That would make sense for a number of reasons. (I don't know how they presented it over there - in truth I've never looked at the Himel website, they're out of my price range.)

The thread hasn't gone anywhere; it's still available - it'll always show up on Google. Only deleted threads, which this wasn't, 'disappear' from a search.



I think the misconception is that it was the subject matter was an issue; it was strictly in the context of a thread where tempers had flared and the issue was being immediately reopened, with the inevitable going the same way. Ever tried to open the same conversation that led to a heated argument with someone five minutes later, as compared to after everyone has had time to cool off?



Two different threads.



Rarely, but it is sadly sometimes necessary. Inevitably, not everyone will agree with when that is.



The apparent confusion over what a 'vendor' is round here seemed also to contribute.

TFL does try to be as transparent as possible; at the same time, occasionally keeping up with things is enough of a challenge. We do also tend to assume in many cases that people will understand what has happened. Political comments deleted - does anyone really not know about the no politics rule by now? I've had people in the past report a post, then complain that their response to said unacceptable post was deleted along with the post... *Sometimes* it does help to think for a minute.

@Edward ,

I have immense respect for your enduring and invaluable contributions to this wonderful community. Thank you!!!!

At the risk of evoking undesirable repercussions, I am unpersuaded by your explanation. The "hype" thread had not become disrespectful. Moreover, it was not unduly repetitive. To the contrary, at the moment the thread was halted, the conversation had evolved into a new exploration of profit margins and whether manufacturers are getting rich at the expense of our patronage. Threads have a way of ebb'ing and flowing in new directions, and the "hype" thread was a perfect example of this phenomena. The splinter discussions were adding vitality and continued relevance to the thread. Therefore, IMHO, it should have been allowed to continue.

The handling of @jeo 's thread was more disconcerting because it was not merely halted, but rather, outright eliminated without warning or explanation. @jeo took the time to gather, write-up, and present his unique experience and his thread was unceremoniously removed. If the Mods believed that @jeo 's thread was too close in time to the "hype" thread -- a consideration I personally disagree with -- why not lock @jeo 's thread, and thereby allow others to benefit from his sharing even if further comments are not permitted?

Finally, the "get a life" comment is, IMHO, inappropriate and disrespectful. Why demean those who dare to question your decisions? Why suggest that we who disagree have no life? You are better than that Edward -- much better. Many here -- me included -- are proud to be a part of this wonderful community and I, for one, do not appreciate being told that I should "get a life" simply because I dared to questions the decision to eliminate a thread.

Thank you again for serving as the backbone and gatekeeper for TFL. I am sincerely grateful for your efforts.

 

[handymike]

I also appreciate the time and effort it takes to keep this wonderful forum going, but I stand with @Superfluous and his comment above.

 

[Edward]

" get a life" was aimed as much at myself as anyone else, and was intended in fun. Guess I missed using an emoji.

Only me remembers Shatner? :O

 

[dudewuttheheck]

@Edward if the timing of @jeo 's thread is the issue, which it seems to be, would he be able to share that information in the future at some time?

Personally, I disagree with the idea that it was a continuation of the discussion from the other closed thread, but if that's the way the mods feel, maybe Jeo can share his information after the dust has settled further?

I think his experience is valuable and should be shared. Keep in mind, people like myself and @Superfluous generally are supportive of Himel and even we want to learn more about this.

 

[Superfluous]

" get a life" was aimed as much at myself as anyone else, and was intended in fun. Guess I missed using an emoji.

Only me remembers Shatner? :O

Thanks for the clarification @Edward . Much appreciated.