Would You Have Said Something?

[LizzieMaine]

It's not a matter of showing patriotism as it is showing respect for *others* who are showing patriotism. The proper thing to do if you don't want to be partake of such a ceremony is quietly withdraw, or stand quietly until the ceremony is finished.

I used to attend sporting events in Canada, and since I'm not Canadian I didn't salute their flag. But I stood quietly and respectfully while Canadians partook of their ceremony. That's the appropriate way to act.

 

[AmateisGal]

Very well said, DocMustang.

 

[Atticus Finch]

You ought to see how some of them act at a homicide scene.

AF

 

[LizzieMaine]

Regarding the "Be Stupid" campaign slogan, it touches upon a sad truth about today's society. It seems that even though one might not have much in the way of the former but have a certain amount of the latter it will more than compensate. But unfortunately it doesn't seem to work the other way round. In other words, it's not brains but audacity that wins the day anymore. And we are all the worse for it.

It's not even actual audacity anymore. It's pasteurized-process audacity product: a manufactured sort of nonconformity for the sake of nonconforming. Be unique, just like everyone else.

 

[DocMustang]

You ought to see how some of them act at a homicide scene.

AF

Gallows humor is entirely different, but should only take place among those who deal with such things daily. This serves to blunt the impact to those who must deal with such things as a part of their profession. It should NEVER take place within earshot of the bereaved.

 

[Feraud]

Exactly. The joke is on all those individualists while the marketing guys are laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Seems a bit strange for him to go to such a ceremony if he wasn't interested. Too many people do things they don't want to do, for whatever reason, and then try to "rebel" in such petty ways.

The recent royal wedding is a similar occasion. Such an incredible waste of time and money it's not even worth mentioning - very rich man marries less rich but still quite rich woman sums it up for us anti-Royalists - but it was a grand excuse to get drunk at lunch time, while assiduously ignoring the event …

bk

 

[AmateisGal]

I think he actually had to be there for his job (news cameraman/journalist) which, when you think about it, means he was also representing his employer.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

Maybe he was tweeting the event live? Thereby showing it respect in the modern digital age way?

"omg national anthem so proud it hurts … some stranger is glaring at me. HELP!! Police!"

bk

 

[Feraud]

lol

 

[AmateisGal]

Maybe he was tweeting the event live? Thereby showing it respect in the modern digital age way?

"omg national anthem so proud it hurts … some stranger is glaring at me. HELP!! Police!"

bk

Now THAT'S funny! LOL!

 

[Edward]

Associated question - what is the significance of the 'hand on heart' gesture during the anthem? It seems, in my experience, to be unique to the US to have such a specific "salute" for civilians during the anthem? When did it come in? I have seen photos of the Pledge being recited by kids in school in the Thirties giving, eh, rather a different salute which some little Austrian guy ruined for everybody. Was the hand on heart a replacement for that, or did it always accompany the anthem?

 

[AmateisGal]

Excellent question, Edward, and one in which I do not know the answer to. Will have to do some research on that...

 

[AmateisGal]

This is VERY interesting...the flag code. Lots of stuff even --I-- didn't know about. Still searching for the hand over the heart thing...

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

 

[AmateisGal]

It looks like the hand over the heart originated with Franklin D. Roosevelt in December of 1942.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Associated question - what is the significance of the 'hand on heart' gesture during the anthem?

That is an interesting question. I had never thought of it as a salute, but I don't know what to call it otherwise. And whatever it is, we also do it when we stand and pledge our allegiance to our flag.

AF

 

[W4ASZ]

This is VERY interesting...the flag code. Lots of stuff even --I-- didn't know about. Still searching for the hand over the heart thing...

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagcode.htm

I think the hand over the heart thing is a custom. Many of the zealous patriots down here do horrible things that violate the Flag Code. So do local governments ! (Mercy !)

fftopic: It's also fun to compare the variations of the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Associated question - what is the significance of the 'hand on heart' gesture during the anthem? It seems, in my experience, to be unique to the US to have such a specific "salute" for civilians during the anthem? When did it come in? I have seen photos of the Pledge being recited by kids in school in the Thirties giving, eh, rather a different salute which some little Austrian guy ruined for everybody. Was the hand on heart a repalcement for that, or did it always accompany the anthem?

Originally the salute was a two-part gesture -- you saluted hand-over-heart (except for men in uniform, who executed a military salute), and then extended your right arm, toward the flag, palm upward, at the end of the Pledge. The arm gesture was thus *not* the same as the Fascist/Nazi salute, but it was close enough to make people uncomfortable, and faded out in the late thirties. It was officially abolished around the time the US entered WW2.

(Before WW1 there was a European-style heel-click along with the raised arm, but that was too Hun-like a gesture for 1917 sensibilities and went away.)

My own pet gripe about modern flag etiquette is the belief that *everyone* is supposed to remove their headgear. This is not the case. *Women* are expected to *keep their hats on,* as are anyone in military or Scout uniform. This was drilled into us by my ex-WAC Girl Scout leader, but seems to have been completely forgotten nowadays.

 

[Pompidou]

It's worth knowing that the author of the pledge was no particular fan of America's (imperfect) tradition of individual liberty. Francis Bellamy was a Christian socialist and a fan of a now quaint-seeming, but then popular movement to reorganize the country along quasi-military, top-down lines in which everybody would be drafted into industrial armies. The goal was sketched out in his cousin Edward Bellamy's once best-selling novel, Looking Backward (a work saved from a certain naive creepiness only by its age).

The pledge was Bellamy's small way of nudging the country away from individualism, toward authoritarian nationalism. His ideal people would pledge loyalty, and wouldn't be free.

After all, free people support governments, institutions and symbols only so long as those things respect their rights and have something positive to offer. Their support is purely conditional. When governments, institutions and symbols displease them, free people trade them in for something they hope will be better, like Americans did in 1776.

The founders weren't really "Pledge of Allegiance" sort of people.

Continue reading on Examiner.com Why pledge allegiance when loyalty should be conditional? - National Civil Liberties | Examiner.com http://www.examiner.com/civil-liber...n-loyalty-should-be-conditional#ixzz1NxlALBsY

This website has a photo of the original salute, and the part I copy pasted seemed most interesting. Seems to me, the original intent of the pledge was to instil the ultra-nationalism that was all the rage in Germany, Russia, Japan, and Italy back when imperialism was still cool. Makes sense that most nations trying to do so would emulate the Roman Empire - the apparent origin of the original salute that would eventually be associated solely with the Axis.

To answer the original question, I wouldn't have said anything. It would make me the bad guy. This person wasn't making a peep, not disrupting anything - keeping to himself silently using a touch screen cell-phone, possibly as part of his job. To go over and complain would be giving him a lot more grief than he gave me or anyone else. If I didn't like what I saw, I wouldn't look.

 

[Atticus Finch]

Interesting. So it is a salute. Yeah, I can see how the upraised hand and clicking of one's heels might cause some discomfort among Americans. Heck, even after a century and a half, some of the older folk around here still grumble a little to themselves whenever they are asked to sing happy thoughts about the United States flag.

AF