Why the X

[The Outlaw Kyle]

I'm not so sure about this. I know lots of people back home, not too many hear in Minnesota, that actually wear a cowboy hat just because it's what they've always done.

I'm sure that there are many, many people that wear that Stetson every day, and use it like it was meant to be used. Is it the majority? How many people still live a rural life that they need a cowboy hat? I'm also sure that quality means something to those guys that wear it every day, rain or shine, and I think that Stetsons QC regarding cowboy hats is not in question here.

Thats not going to happen for a whole raft of reasons. I'll just leave it at that.

Fair enough, just an idea.

The first thing we need to do is get fedoras in department stores. If you've ever gone to the hat section of a department store (if you can find one!) You'll find they are all S-M-L with cloth sweatbands stacked on top of one another. We make fitted hats with leather Sweatbands that sit in boxes. Sizes 6 3/4 through 7-3/4 Thats 9 sizes. BESDOR can correct me on it (I don't know) but a full size run for one style would probably be about 24 hats with the bulk of them between sizes 7 and 7 3/8's Department stores don't want to keep stock like that and we don't really do S-M-L sizes.. In all honesty unless there is a huge "sea change" You won't find sized fitted hats in a department store.

I understand the HUGE barrier that is to you. Well, I think the Nostalgia is a step in the right direction for Fedora Lounge types who will buy over the internet for the right hat. I gotta say, that price is almost perfect. I'd love to see more pics and a full review, including wearing it in the rain. If it passes that, then I could see getting it. Thanks again for the responses, it's so great to have a discussion with THE big hat company about these things. Very insightful.

 

[Colby Jack]

Hatco...it's good to have you back!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap I'm looking forward to the Nostalgia, and hope it's a hit!...Any idea if there are plans to put out a better quality Open Road in a fedora shape again?...Or maybe more open crown hats?
Jack

 

[HATCO]

Hatco...it's good to have you back!:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap I'm looking forward to the Nostalgia, and hope it's a hit!...Any idea if there are plans to put out a better quality Open Road in a fedora shape again?...Or maybe more open crown hats?
Jack

Believe it or not I started a preliminary one last week. I hope to have it this monday or tuesday...

Silver Belly

 

[barrowjh]

Answering Tonyb - I did not intend to imply that any hatter was not being honest - maybe, within the industry 'all' or '100%' may be understood to mean that the felt is a singular type to the extent possible, since it is impossible for anyone to felt with one fur alone. I am not really clear on whether or not the felter has to mix in something other than beaver to get an 'all' beaver to felt. I may have misunderstood Jeff, but he was matter-of-fact about not being able to felt using one fur alone. Maybe he meant that different grades of fur from the same type critter could be felted, but I got the impression that it was the other way - need to put in at least a small bit of other critter.

The mixing was being done by an experienced employee (a handfull? a half-handfull?) by hand - this was not a precise process where a machine injects the fur components and mixes them to a scientifically measured standard of saturation. The precision was at the back end - an experienced employee looking over the finished hat bodies for defects - a hole that developed when the basic crown was formed, or weak spots on the brim, etc. The fall-back to that system is Jeff dealing with returned hats.

See, I'm hoping someone with real knowledge will step in here and help me understand the strength/durability question. Since we know that hatters prefer to work with the 100% beaver (per comments I have seen on this site), somehow it must be the strongest felt, even though it might only have a token amount of 'other' fur? Or, do they prefer the 100% beaver more for its 'hand'? I was under the impression that the lightweight felts that have made a comeback in recent years were 100% beaver, and strength is critical to that felt, so, while some 'other' fur may be essential for felting purposes, there appears to be no need to achieve an 'equal' mix for strength.

 

[AlanC]

Since we're on the subject of ideas for HATCO (not that he asked), but I think a premiere beaver line of 'Special Edition' type hats made in a limited number would be a big hit aimed at the higher end (eg, Fedora Lounge) market. For example, a re-edition Stratoliner in silverbelly, a re-edition Whippet in gray, a St. Regis homburg in black. Do one a year, maybe, in a limited run.

Stetson has such a rich heritage it's a shame they don't cash in on what has been a frustrated market. I guess Stetson's question is just how big the market is.

 

[tonyb]

See, I'm hoping someone with real knowledge will step in here and help me understand the strength/durability question. Since we know that hatters prefer to work with the 100% beaver (per comments I have seen on this site), somehow it must be the strongest felt, even though it might only have a token amount of 'other' fur? Or, do they prefer the 100% beaver more for its 'hand'? I was under the impression that the lightweight felts that have made a comeback in recent years were 100% beaver, and strength is critical to that felt, so, while some 'other' fur may be essential for felting purposes, there appears to be no need to achieve an 'equal' mix for strength.

Yup, I'm hoping that too. It would also be good to have clearer definitions for a couple of the more-common terms in the industry's lexicon.

I've made but a few all-new hats, so my assessments of hat felt are far from the most informed ones you'll ever find. But I have indeed made a few, and I've refurbished, to varying degrees of success, a bunch more than that. So I've developed a sense of what makes for a better or worse hat body. If anything beats all-beaver, I've yet to see it. In my experience, its only potential rival is what I have every reason to believe is a vintage all-nutria body. I can't tell you if beaver is stronger or longer-lasting than other furs (can't say that it isn't, either, for that matter). But I sure find it more pleasant to work with. Yes, it has a better hand. It finishes better and looks better and is generally better behaved around the shop. It's less prone to throwing unpleasant surprises one's way. It's not that you can't make a nice hat from other furs, but your chances of actually accomplishing that are better with beaver.

 

[suitedcboy]

It is great to have a hat manufacturer insider to post here. The inside details are very interesting to read for persons that are as "into" hats as we are on this site.
I own and have owned several dozen Resistol westerns over the last 40 years and a few dozen Stetsons. I usually find the Resistols to be more comfortable on my noggin but I have not seen either one to be a clear winner in other areas. My current collection numbers about 30 with none less than a 20X and more than half of them 100X or better. I have lived through the ups and downs of Hatco and its predecessors but for westerns they still were the high ground even in the bad times.
I agree that 100% beaver makes a fine hat that can be restyled repeatedly and live through rain and things that no hat should have to endure. My hats that are beaver/mink or beaver/cashmere probably have these traits but they are my most costly and therefore my most cherished lids so they get worn on special occasions and not in bad weather.
My fedora collection is much less at 8 and all are vintage and releatively new to me.
I wear a western felt every day even in Texas heat (but not when I'm outdoors for hours, then I relinquish and do a ball cap or a straw).

 

[barrowjh]

Thanks tonyb, beaver is the preferred felt.

 

[indycop]

Believe it or not I started a preliminary one last week. I hope to have it this monday or tuesday...

Silver Belly

Very interested in this! I am also hoping very much for a wide brim bound Nostalgia

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

Hatco, first off thank you for your presence . I have been wearing your products since the 70’s, most were westerns and am very proud of every Resistol and Stetson I own. Some of us in our zeal and pride in our dress hats, loose sight that we are a minority of the hat wearing public, not the majority. I also own many vintage Stetsons, Resistols as well as most of the other popular hats from the glory days of dress hats. I am sure that Hatco is producing the best hat per price point possible. Seems some are under the misunderstanding that a mass produced hat will ever even try and compete with a custom. GM has never tried to compete with a custom car maker, nor any other business. Once again, thank you for your presence and your companies diligence in trying to bring us the best quality per price point as possible.

I originally had this post in reply to a thread about Nutria. It's so long and really has nothing to do much with the 1st post of the original thread...I'm just going to make this post, its own thread.

I'm bringing this article back up b/c I feel it deserves a continuation. I'm sure everyone is aware of my long absence. I won't go into details but suffice it to say this last year has been very hard for me personally. Anyway lets start shall we.

I'll preface all of this by saying I'm a terrible liar. It's easier for me just to be transparent and tell the truth. So that's what I do. In some ways thats not good for someone in a marketing position
Why do we use X's? Why don't we just list the mixture or the ratio?

I brought this up in a meeting months ago. You may not agree with the reasoning of it but we had a healthy debate about it for half an hour. This really revolved around western hats and not dress hats. While I don't agree with all of the argument I understand the underlying reasons behind it.

1st a little info that some may already know. There are 3 main staples of fur that usually make up a fur felt hat (I'm not counting Nutria)

Beaver, Hare, and Rabbit. Most know this. However within those three there a total of nine different qualities. I haven't gotten permission to post those so I won't.

What determines the qualities of the fur?

Type of Skin
Enviroment and Season
Age
Color of fur
And the process used to get the fur. (Cleaning method, shearing depth, Carrotting etc)

This is for illustrative purposes only. I do not know the ratios of fur mixtures. I am going to pick an odd arbitrary number for the X.

Lets say we have a 12X hat, (no such thing as a 12X hat) and we list the ingredients of the hat.

50% Rabbit

30% Hare

20% Beaver

Suddenly we've given our competitors an advantage. They can make a hat or they can say a hat is 40% Rabbit 35% Hare and 25% Beaver and label it as a 12X or a 9X or whatever and sell it cheaper.

How is that possible How could they sell it cheaper? It's got more of the good stuff!

Remember there 9 levels of quality of fur between Beaver Hare and Rabbit.

Well I'm going to break the rule I set for myself above and just explain it so there's no confusion. Hopefully this is not hidden knowledge.

Without getting too specific there are 3 levels of Hare fur:

Strongest to Weakest

Turkey Back
Double Ring
Single Ring

So we can make a hat that is 50% Beaver and 50% Turkey Back Hare.
It's going to be listed as 50% Beaver and 50% Hare (b/c really what is turkey back or double ring going to mean to the average consumer?) Are they willing to get that deep into it? I say no.

Our competitor can make a hat that is 50% Beaver and 50% Single Ring Hare. A lesser quality hat. If they choose to put a tag of ingredients on there it's just going to say 50% Beaver 50% hare. The same tag as ours even though it's lesser quality hat.

Joe Q Public looks at our hat:

18X 50% Beaver 50% Hare $400

Joe Q Public looks at our Competitors hat:

18X 50% Beaver 50% Hare $350

If he trusts our brand and our quality and believes in our brand he'll buy our hat.

If he is concerned about cost 1st, he is more likely to buy the competitors hat b/c the tags both list the same ratio.


It just turns into another arms race with a chance to commit a lot of subterfuge. While you could certainly prove a finished hat was 50% Beaver 50% hare, I don't think you could determine the quality of the hare throughout the hat once it has been made into the final product. The best test would be by hand and feel, but that's not very scientific.

If we were to list the ingredients, we would have to educate the buyers at the stores, the salesman at the stores and finally the customers at the stores. I think that is a tall order.

Also keep in mind that stores can benefit from this to. This can happen in Western stores. I'm tired but I hope this makes sense.
Our price / quality is fixed and known in the western customers mind.

Lets say a Stetson 4X hat wholesale costs $90 and the western store sells them for $180. If we pretend there's no overhead just to keep everything simple thats a profit of $90 or a 100% margin.

That same store buys cheap lower quality imports from Brand Z listed as 4X but they only pay $30 for them.

They don't turn around and sell that hat for $60 for a profit of $30 or a 100% margin. They might mark them up to $120. thats a profit of $90 or a 300% margin. If you were a store owner which would you be tempted to push? Think about it. You as a customer would probably question the quality of a 4X hat if it was marked at $60 retail when compared to ours. You'd be less likely to question it if it was priced closer to ours. Are we happy about stuff like that when it happens? No of course not. We just try to make the best hats possible using the best materials in a factory in Texas that has been here since the 1930's. I can't speak for past presidents or regimes. Nor can I speak for the current one. I will say that he is committed to quality and honesty. I try to follow in his footsteps because I think it is he right way to approach things.

I hope you guys can take me at my word. We are proud of our hats. I know we get bashed here regularly. Some of it I think is unfair, but please know that problems that are brought to my attention I will try to answer and fix.
Like I said, we are proud of our hats. We want to continue to be.

 

[KY Gentleman]

Hatco, first off thank you for your presence . I have been wearing your products since the 70’s, most were westerns and am very proud of every Resistol and Stetson I own.

I'll second that sentiment!:eusa_clap

 

[GWD]

Forgive the Rant

Forgive me if I'm wrong but, aren't most modern custom made hats comparable to the quality of the vintage "mass produced" hats of the "Golden Era"?

I would very much enjoy the input from the folks here that have hats made by custom makers today that can compare the quality of felt and workmanship of the vintage hats in their collections.

I personally don't have a custom made hat, but I do have several vintage hats of various qualities. I do have one brand new Stetson Open Road that is very thin and stiff and nowhere near the quality of my vintage hats.

I just looked up an inflation web site and $10.00 in 1940 is equivalent to $143.00 in 2005, about the same price as the Nostalgia is listed. The 4x Open Road is listed at $165.00. Had I paid $165.00 for my new Open Road I would have been looking for a rear end to shove it up! I paid $29.00 for that hat from Orvis on sale. I don't think Orvis is in the habit of loosing money so is the markup on a Stetson Hat 575%?

I don't mean to be so negative here, it's just very frustrating to see Stetson, which was once huge part of Americana "Best in the World" according to an antique pin I've recently seen, turn out such disappointing products.

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

GWD you pose many questions as for the quality of a custom VS a vintage. It has been discussed many times, and the felt available to the custom makers, is just not quite up to the felt in the glory days. Art, please correct me if I am wrong, seems I remember you stating something similar. Customs are wonderful and recommended to any and all. The prices of vintage have spiraled out of control, when I started my collection a nice vintage in a 7 3/8ths could be had for 20 to 30 dollars and if one was lucky even less. From what I have seen not any more. As for the $29 hat from Orvis, I looked and could not find it. Are you saying, that you paid $29 for a Stetson OR? What was the X factor? Seems that OR’s have been offered at multiple price points. As for Orvis price, they are the ones setting the price, Hatco, may suggest a MSRP, but it is up to the retailer to set their price. Seems to me, if we want a positive relationship with Hatco, acting like gentleman would be a good start. JMHO

 

[GWD]

Yes, I paid $29.00 for a Stetson 4X Open Road from Orvis in May based on a tip from Woodie, here is the link from when I posted it.

Nothing I stated in my previous comment is untrue, I simply raised some questions about the quality of the new hats available to us today vs. 50 years ago. It's not unreasonable to expect a similar quality product for roughly the same amount of money ($10.00 = $143.00 today).

Is it possible for todays hat makers to produce hats of the same quality of 50 years ago? I would certainly think so, I don't think the technology is lost. If they did produce the same quality hat today I'm sure the profit margins wouldn't be as great.

Ultimately, it is us as consumers to decide how we best spend our money.

As far as your comment about me not being a gentleman, I take offense to it. There is nothing un-gentlemanly about my comments.

 

[HATCO]

Forgive me if I'm wrong but, aren't most modern custom made hats comparable to the quality of the vintage "mass produced" hats of the "Golden Era"?

I would very much enjoy the input from the folks here that have hats made by custom makers today that can compare the quality of felt and workmanship of the vintage hats in their collections.

I personally don't have a custom made hat, but I do have several vintage hats of various qualities. I do have one brand new Stetson Open Road that is very thin and stiff and nowhere near the quality of my vintage hats.

I just looked up an inflation web site and $10.00 in 1940 is equivalent to $143.00 in 2005, about the same price as the Nostalgia is listed. The 4x Open Road is listed at $165.00. Had I paid $165.00 for my new Open Road I would have been looking for a rear end to shove it up! I paid $29.00 for that hat from Orvis on sale. I don't think Orvis is in the habit of loosing money so is the markup on a Stetson Hat 575%?

I don't mean to be so negative here, it's just very frustrating to see Stetson, which was once huge part of Americana "Best in the World" according to an antique pin I've recently seen, turn out such disappointing products.

It costs us more than that to make the hat. There are a couple ways that could have happened. I don't want to guess why Orvis listed it at that price. You would have to ask them. You'd be surprised how much it costs to make a hat with American labor.

 

[Aaron Hats]

I don't think Orvis is in the habit of loosing money so is the markup on a Stetson Hat 575%?

lol lol lol

 

[Bud-n-Texas]

Take offense if you like, this comment however is not something that in my opinion is very gentlemanly. Certainly not in mixed company or in the potential presence of children. One of the hallmarks of the lounge has been a civil exchange of ideas, I hope that this will not change to a shock jock mentalty.
"I would have been looking for a rear end to shove it up!"

 

[Mark G]

GWD, I think Orvis does this kind of "sale" on a regular basis to get rid of overstocks and things that aren't selling. A few of us on the FL bought a travel jacket for $39 that originally listed for almost $200. Most of their stuff seems so overpriced that maybe they can afford to take a loss on things that don't move.

I must agree that current Open Roads are not what they used to be and I think it's great that Hatco is trying to get the ball rolling on an upgraded OR.

 

[GWD]

lol lol lol

I take it your laughing at the 575% markup comment and not that Orvis is in the habit of loosing money.

I didn't honestly believe that such a high markup was the case, although not entirely unheard of. (just look at the markup of diamonds)

I doubt that I could find anyone at Orvis that could explain why they were selling the Open Roads at $29.00 but I will give it a shot, just for the heck of it.

Bud, you have my sincere apology if my comment offended you.

 

[AlanC]

^Orvis, like any retailer, frequently sells things at a clearance price. They had limited sizes in the OR. They keep marking things down until they're gone. That wasn't a regular price.