Why Irish soldiers who fought Hitler hide their medals

[Two Types]

The father of a friend was an ex-IRA man - an English-born Irishman who tried to join the British army during WW1, was rejected for being underage, so went to ireland, joined the IRA and fought the British. The irish civil war saw him return to England and spend the next 20 years happily serving in the British Army.

There is a general misunderstanding of the attitudes of the Irish to the British (and vice versa). The germans fell into this trap during WW2 when they tried to recruit Irish prisoners of war to fight against the British. They selected men by name - i.e. anyone with an Irish name - and segregated them into special camps. Many of the 'Irishmen' were perplexed: they were English born, but with irish surnames, with no notion of being Irish. Most of the others (genuine Irishmen) had no desire to fight for Germany since they had volunteered to fight for the British.

As one Irishman told me "I was living in England when war was declared, so I had to fight when the English were fighting."

 

[Tony B]

And I thought some of my lot were basket cases.

It must have been bemusing for the gerries trying to figure it all out, trying to apply logic to emotional choices must have tied them in knots.

It would have been amusing to see one of them getting their hands on and trying to turn Robert Blair "Paddy" Mayne.

 

[Edward]

Well, when I was growing up in the Six Counties, almost without exception the bitterest, deepest set hatred of the English was to be found among the very hardcore of Ulster Unionism. lol

 

[Rathdown]

Well, when I was growing up in the Six Counties, almost without exception the bitterest, deepest set hatred of the English was to be found among the very hardcore of Ulster Unionism. lol

Are you referring to London and the six home counties?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I seem to recall that Irish immigrants in Texas and northern Mexico joined the Mexican side during the Mexican-American war because Mexico was a Catholic nation, bringing their home politics to the new world.

Yes, and many Irish immigrants went to Spain and Latin America during the era of Spanish colonialism. Some of them reached very high rank: in the 1700s, Ambrose O'Higgins was appointed Viceroy of Peru ... and his son, Gen. Bernard O'Higgins, became revolutionary Chile's George Washington (and first 'president').

 

[Edward]

Are you referring to London and the six home counties?

No, the Six Counties in relation to Ireland are the six of the nine Ulster counties which made up the statelet of "Northern Ireland", following partition under the Government of Ireland Act 1920.

 

[4spurs]

The legacy that the "San Patricios" left behind was the image of an Irish man who was a shiftless coward. It was their action of cowardly betrayal in deserting the army that led, in large part, to a shift in attitudes on the part of the American people, and fed the backlash of anti-Irish sentiment that existed until the Civil War. I wasn't until the exploits of the mostly Irish 69th Regiment during that conflict that the Irish were redeemed as soldiers-- and cititzens-- in the eyes of the American people.

One could hardly be considered a coward for joining a war; cowards run away from combat all together.

When you write "on the part of the American people" please define just who those people are? I suspect they were the same people who hung signs in their windows stating who need not apply for work, or enter for service before the Mexican war, and the same people who thought the war with Mexico was a good idea.

There were, and still are, plenty of people who live north of the border who do not think it was a justified war, one of whom I quoted in my original post; Ulysses S. Grant. I don't know what Grant thought of the San Patricios, but I do know that there were plenty of Irish who fought for the Confederacy. Were those men "traitors" to the country that gave them refuge in your opinion?

There are plenty of places north of the border where the San Patricios are held in high regard for their actions; and that's why they are celebrated north of a border that crossed the mariachi musicians I've heard play at Irish Pubs in the southwest.

 

[Rathdown]

4Spurs, this discussion has gone way, way, off topic, so you will have to excuse me if I don't bother to reply, in depth or in detail, to all of your comments. What I will say is that I am Irish, and that by any lights the 173 deserters who formed the San Patricios were, frankly, the scum of the earth, especially when compared to the more than 2000 Irish men who served honourably in the US Army in the Mexican War, and who were a true credit to both Ireland and the United States of America.

Presumably you are an American, perhaps of Irish descent, and perhaps you served in the US armed forces. If, as an American, you wish to celebrate the fact that nearly 170 years ago, during the War with Mexico, 173 men deserted, en mass, from the US army, then turned on their comrades and killed American soldiers, that's your prerogative. As an Irish man I would rather you celebrated the loyalty of the many Irish soldiers who served in that war, rather than the perfidity of the few; but what you choose to do is up to you.

As gentlemen, I would suggest that we confine any further discussion of this topic to private messages if, indeed, any further discussion is even necessary.

 

[Maguire]

While i agree with your comment on desertion- i'd say that its being unfair to the soldiers who deserted from the side that was frankly going to win and fought for the losing side. In the 1840s the Mexican army wasn't any more feared than it is today. Infact its probably more effective today than it ever was at any point in the last century. As for the issue here, i don't see the shock, of british service being controversial, having lived in Ireland and being irish american myself. Ireland always looked to a mainland friend. For a time it was Spain, then France, then with the rise of Germany, it seemed the Kaiser may be the answer. I hear that some of the Easter Rising rebels even considered putting one of his sons, Prince Joachim on the "throne" of Ireland! The German government made every effort during the war to remain on cordial or at least neutral terms with the Irish Republic. Were I in Ireland at the time i certainly wouldn't have blamed them. Germans weren't burning down irish homes, or scattering them across the world, or massacring them at home. That had been entirely a British past time until living memory for many of that generation. Britain's enemy was Ireland's friend and DeValera knew he had as much to lose in supporting Britain as opposing it. This wasn't an issue of the politics of the government in charge, it was an old national rivalry which went back well before the seeds of the World Wars were planted. Sentiments today are quite different, and the mentality in Ireland has changed drastically in the last two or three decades. Lets keep in mind that what our modern minds may find strange or absurd was common place to our grandparents generation and more importantly, many of the things we take as inviolable would seem absolutely absurd and alien to them.

 

[4spurs]

Rathdown; "What I will say is that I am Irish, and that by any lights the 173 deserters who formed the San Patricios were, frankly, the scum of the earth." Rathdown, really? I don't think so.

The war with Mexico cannot be justified, it was a territorial land-grab. People who sided with Mexico, whether they did so as deserters or not, were justified in doing so, and if they were "scum of the earth" for fighting against the country that gave them refuge than I suppose too were all the other Irish who wore the gray uniform twenty years later by your reasoning.

As an Irishman you should be proud of the men who fought for Mexico; every other Irishman and Irish-American I personally know are proud of the San Patricios.

 

[ButteMT61]

Having never served nor fought in any battle, I must say, I find second-guessing the motivation of people decades back troubling. It's so easy to sit on our computers in 2012 and say what people should have done. I don't follow that line of thinking. People as animals have instincts to survive. I spent the end of 2011 in many of the places where WWII was fought and ended. I was deeply moved by just being there, and learning of what went on - beyond books and movies and schooling I've had.
Just consider yourselves lucky you had no such decision to make. You have no clue what you'd do in similar circumstances. War sucks - it sucks bad.

 

[Rathdown]

4 Spurs,

What part of the last sentence in my previous post didn't you understand? To whit: "As gentlemen, I would suggest that we confine any further discussion of this topic to private messages if, indeed, any further discussion is even necessary." But if you want it out in the open, so be it. As a gentleman I am happy to oblige.

Okay, 4 Spurs, you are just plain wrong. You seem to be unwilling to accept the fact that deserters from the US Army are not honourable men, and should not be glorified for having abandoned their comrades in the face of the enemy. Your attitude mirrors that of many of the ill-informed Irish-Americans, and a few Irish ex-pats, that one runs into in the USA from time to time. These people seem to live in the mythic fog of an Ireland that never was, a fog fueled by green beer on Paddy's Day and Clancy Brothers songs. They join sectarian clubs, and support sectarian causes because they know no better. They also know sweet Fanny Adams about their own history. So here's a history lesson for them, about the San Patricios.

They deserted because they were offered five pesos de plata (silver pesos) each, increased to twenty pesos de plata if they arrived with their musket, powder, and ball. Their ringleader, Riley, who brokered the deal with the Mexicans, absconded with the cash, and avoided the hangman's noose, a fate which befell the approximately fifty deserters who were later captured and executed.

So the San Patricios deserted for money. How praiseworthy and honourable is that.

You have suggested that I should be proud of the Irish deserters who fought for Mexico-- sorry bucko, but as an Irish man (it's two words, by the way) I have nothing but contempt for those who turned their guns on their fellow Irish men serving in the American army. That they did it for pesos makes it even more reprehensible, no matter how hard modern day revisionists may try to spin it, and no matter how many green beer swilling "Irish-Americans" may be gullible enough to buy into it. You state that "every other Irishman (sic) and Irish-American I personally know are proud of the San Patricios". If that is so, it speaks volumes about the character of the company you keep. What, I wonder, is their opinion of those "undocumented" Americans who have returned to Mexico, become "soldiers" in drug cartels, and then returned to the United States where they have killed US law enforcement officers? Do they celebrate the actions of these people in the saloons of the South West? I rather doubt it.

Your comments suggesting that, by my reasoning, the Irish who served in the Confederate army during the War Between The States, should also be considered as "scum of the earth", is not only risible, but frankly insulting to the memory of anyone who served in the Confederate armed forces, including the 800 Sicilian troops who arrived in New Orleans to serve in the Confederate army in 1861.

Anyhow, I (and I am sure others) would appreciate it if you would oblige me -- as the gentleman I assume you to be -- by moving any further discussion of the San Patricios to either private message, or some other, more appropriate web site.

 

[4spurs]

The part of your above post that I don't understand Rathdown is your need to insult and lecture.

I have no interest in having an offline discussion with you. You are unable to take criticism or accept a different opinion without becoming bombastic and shrill; so why would I want to engage in a private discussion with you? If you don't like the opinions I express in this thread then don't reply to them.

 

[Tomasso]

As an Irishman you should be proud of the men who fought for Mexico

Sorry, but I find it hard to be proud of a group of mercenary turncoats. Now, I do feel proud when I see all the Irish names on the bronze plaque at the San Jacinto monument, which honors the participants of the battle of San Jacinto.

 

[amador]

Thanks for the history lesson fellas, seems that that history is still with us.

 

[Story]

Ireland pardons Second World War soldiers who left to fight Nazis
Thousands of Irish soldiers who were punished in their home country for joining British forces to fight the Nazis in the Second World War are finally to receive full recognition.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rld-War-soldiers-who-left-to-fight-Nazis.html

 

[MikeKardec]

It is worth mentioning that until just after WWII the British Empire held a great deal of the world under it's ignorant yet well meaning thumb. We in the US, being the first of the anti-colonial revolutionaries, often forget that others may have said, "Give me liberty or give me death!" Now, because so much time has passed, I tend to simply be interested rather than militant. My attitude is more like the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where the Jewish rebels are trying to figure out why they hate the Romans so much.

The really sad people are those who felt that in order to oppose British (or American, or French) influence they had to back their enemies. Some backed the Nazis, then the Soviet Union ... Not a track record I'd be proud of. If you want to be against something, more power to you ... but you don't have to succumb to that "the enemy of my enemy ..." business.

 

[Edward]

Having never served nor fought in any battle, I must say, I find second-guessing the motivation of people decades back troubling. It's so easy to sit on our computers in 2012 and say what people should have done. I don't follow that line of thinking. People as animals have instincts to survive. I spent the end of 2011 in many of the places where WWII was fought and ended. I was deeply moved by just being there, and learning of what went on - beyond books and movies and schooling I've had.
Just consider yourselves lucky you had no such decision to make. You have no clue what you'd do in similar circumstances. War sucks - it sucks bad.

Agreed absolutely... and here's a thing: given the sort of direct experience necessary in order to fully understand that sort of situation, I hope I never do.

Ireland pardons Second World War soldiers who left to fight Nazis
Thousands of Irish soldiers who were punished in their home country for joining British forces to fight the Nazis in the Second World War are finally to receive full recognition.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rld-War-soldiers-who-left-to-fight-Nazis.html

Timely gesture; all part of moving on in the old country.

It is worth mentioning that until just after WWII the British Empire held a great deal of the world under it's ignorant yet well meaning thumb. We in the US, being the first of the anti-colonial revolutionaries, often forget that others may have said, "Give me liberty or give me death!" Now, because so much time has passed, I tend to simply be interested rather than militant. My attitude is more like the scene in Monty Python's Life of Brian where the Jewish rebels are trying to figure out why they hate the Romans so much.

The really sad people are those who felt that in order to oppose British (or American, or French) influence they had to back their enemies. Some backed the Nazis, then the Soviet Union ... Not a track record I'd be proud of. If you want to be against something, more power to you ... but you don't have to succumb to that "the enemy of my enemy ..." business.

History - ancient, modern and very recent - is littered with examples which should teach us to think twice about going down that road. Alas, it seems Those In Charge never listen.

 

[the hairy bloke]

There was recently a row in Austria about a memorial to WWII deserters at the end of the War.

I suppose one has to look at things on a case by case basis. As a Brit this issue looks like "good deserters". Whereas the Mexican War example, obviously, does not look that to everyone. To get back to WWII deserters, the Germans tried to set up a British SS unit. It failed and many British Union of Fascist supporters were very proud to fight against Hitler & Mussolini.

On the other side there were Germans, Italians and others who did fight for the Allies against the Axis (Sterling came across some Germans in Tobruk).

And there were Indians who wanted to fight against the Imperialist British more than they feared the Imperialist Japanese. They were lauded as heros by the Indian politicians after Independence, but hated by the Indian Army as, you guessed it, Deserters.

Are there "good" deserters? If not then what about units that are no-questions asked outfits, such as the French Foreign Legion?

 

[hatguy1]

There is a general misunderstanding of the attitudes of the Irish to the British (and vice versa).

It may have been for PR purposes, but that's what my Irish tour guide told us several years ago. She said the Irish and Brits have had their spats, but the Irish people (not the govt) are the first to run to their aid in times of national crisis like WW1 or WW2.