Why Don Draper IS Lounge

[ButteMT61]

...Not everything of yesteryear is Sheriff Andy Taylor and Floyd the Barber.

And that's a shame...

 

[skyvue]

And that's a shame...

Is it? I love Andy G. -- and Andy Hardy, too -- but I'd sure hate to have to give up my films noir or my pre-codes.

I think Mad Men is terrific. Most (not all) of the characters have both likable sides and darker sides -- they're flawed, like most of the folks I've known in my life.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

And that's a shame...

Yep. Used to be a community or famly way of life at least to strive for...appreciate and protect.
Today looked upon as foolish old fashion dreamland..so self or me overrides any of that consideration. All under the guise of 'inclusion'. I was in highschool until the mid '60s. I remember the later '60s beginning the breeding of coming cut throat over excess. It wasn't pretty during the next few decades and certainly not now. Nothing to emulate..but has become common. Normalized...liberalized...with sadly much more to come. A ruthlessness that has been there in the past...but now has become a way of life to aspire to in this jungle we've made and continue to willingly progress.
HD

 

[ButteMT61]

Is it? I love Andy G. -- and Andy Hardy, too -- but I'd sure hate to have to give up my films noir or my pre-codes.I think Mad Men is terrific. Most (not all) of the characters have both likable sides and darker sides -- they're flawed, like most of the folks I've known in my life.

It is. Even Andy had his darker side - just it wasn't in public, nor was it glorified or worshipped like bad behavior seems to be today. Mad Men (and others) benefit from this thirst for people's crappy side like it's honorable. We ALL have a dark side, it just used to be a little less OK to show it. I kinda liked my childhood where people were more like that - especially in Montana and Washington where my grandparents were. I'll take that life over "Mad Men" any day of the week. All year long.

 

[ButteMT61]

...A ruthlessness that has been there in the past...but now has become a way of life to aspire to in this jungle we've made and continue to willingly progress. HD

You mean, "regress"

 

[LizzieMaine]

I guess it all comes down to "who would you rather live next door to?" As far as I can see, Bro. Draper is just Otis Campbell with a marketing degree and a better-fitting suit.

 

[skyvue]

I guess it all comes down to "who would you rather live next door to?" As far as I can see, Bro. Draper is just Otis Campbell with a marketing degree and a better-fitting suit.

With all respect, I think most of us watch plenty of movies and television shows about people we don't want to live next door to. I don't revere Don Draper (or anyone else on the show) and I certainly don't pattern my life after him (quite the opposite), but neither do I care to only watch movies and television shows about people who are like me or that I'd want as neighbors. As I said above, if I limited myself along those lines, I'd have missed out on some amazing films noir over the years.

But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind -- watch Mad Men or don't. I certainly don't think less of anyone who doesn't watch it.

 

[ButteMT61]

...But I'm not trying to change anyone's mind -- watch Mad Men or don't. I certainly don't think less of anyone who doesn't watch it.

Nor I. I believe we're responding because the OP said "Don Draper IS Lounge". We appear to be saying, "Oh no we ain't". As to the show, I don't like it, but I see why others do. I enjoyed the first two seasons, then it just went stale/sour for me. We're talking two different things here - the show, and the Lounge.

 

[skyvue]

It is. Even Andy had his darker side - just it wasn't in public, nor was it glorified or worshipped like bad behavior seems to be today. ... I'll take that life over "Mad Men" any day of the week. All year long.

I don't know anyone who glorifies Don Draper or anyone else on the show (well, except, perhaps, the original poster in this thread). Draper has his heroic moments, but just as many moments in which he behaves badly. The show's an examination of a time and place and a particular subculture. No one's perfect on the show, but no one's purely evil, either (though a couple come pretty close), and certainly the creators of the show aren't presenting their characters as anyone to be emulated.

And no one (the original poster aside, perhaps) is talking about "swapping their lives" for the lives of the people on Mad Men. It's escapist entertainment, with some grit and darkness to it. Not everyone's cup of tea, of course, but then neither was THE MALTESE FALCON, another dark entertainment that features a crew of characters, not a one of which is heroic or worth patterning oneself after (well, maybe Effie). There's not much difference between Don Draper and Sam Spade, as Hammett wrote him and Bogart played him. Both characters break plenty of societal rules (Spade slept with his partner's wife, remember) and both have personal standards of conduct that are, in many (but not every) ways, admirable.

I wouldn't want to live next door to Sam Spade (I wouldn't trust him around my wife), but I'll watch THE MALTESE FALCON every chance I get.

 

[skyvue]

Nor I. I believe we're responding because the OP said "Don Draper IS Lounge".

Fair enough. I thought the original post (no offense intended) so silly that I thought we'd all moved on from that.

 

[Flicka]

Fair enough. I thought the original post (no offense intended) so silly that I thought we'd all moved on from that.

FWIW, I am now looking for an excuse to say "as a woman, I am not the kind of gal who is gonna be under the thumb of the little man".

 

[LizzieMaine]

FWIW, I am now looking for an excuse to say "as a woman, I am not the kind of gal who is gonna be under the thumb of the little man".

Little indeed. Ain't it the truth.

 

[gtdean48]

... Bro. Draper is just Otis Campbell with a marketing degree and a better-fitting suit.

lollollol
:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

 

[AtomicEraTom]

On the topic of Mayberry: if you want to pattern your life after a television character, people such as Andy may be a better pick. The man wasn't perfect, but certainly a respectable role-model.

 

[Noirblack]

On the topic of Mayberry: if you want to pattern your life after a television character, people such as Andy may be a better pick. The man wasn't perfect, but certainly a respectable role-model.

These are two good shows to compare to each other. The Andy Griffith show was on air during the time Mad Men is set. But there's more...

On the surface, Andy was a great guy, beloved by his community. But dig a little deeper and what do we see? A single father raising a child. A man who seems to have no interest in having a marriage commitment with Helen, his girlfriend character in the show. Similarly, she shows no interest in marrying Andy. This seems like a response to the "Leave it to Beaver" type show in which perfection was portrayed as two parents plus kids.

We never see Opie's mother. Presumably she died. Andy seemed unable to run a household (we never even see him boil a pot of water) and he needed someone to take care of Opie when he was at work. So he had aunt Bea live with him. Because she was there, he never had to seek out a new wife. He had the perfect housekeeper and cook in aunt Bea. This gave him an excuse not to seek out a marital relationship with another female. Despite being the sheriff, he never carried a gun (symbolizing him as a 'neutered' character). But of course Andy could have remarried (not Helen perhaps, the proto-feminist who did not require or desire marriage - but certainly some other woman in Mayberry) and sent aunt Bea packing. What prevented him from doing this? Was he not over the pain of the death of Opie's mother? Was he emotionally neutered? Or was it conscious decision on his part rejecting the convention of his day?

Next, consider all the regular characters on the show. Were any of them married? Not aunt Bea. Not Barney, Not Floyd, Not Goober. Not Gomer. Not Barney. Marriage was not the norm in the little town of Mayberry.

So the show ins't really a paean to traditional family values at the time. The deeper you look, the more subversive it is. Look how Andy ran the jail. It was basically an hotel for the town drunk. The cells were fixed up with comfy chairs, reading lamps, doilies etc. Whenever any of the state law enforcement people came there was always the threat that Andy would be censured for his non-standard ideas. Yet in each of those episodes, it always turned out that the officials learned that Andy's way was the best way. This is a swift kick in the seat of the pants to officialdom and slavish rule-following.

By contrast, Mad Men is much more open about how it negatively portrays family values. In that show, families are made to be broken. Don Draper is far from neutered. He can commit - well, serially at least. He's done it twice already! Marriage number two looks like it's about to tank. Will he bother with a third? Stay tuned...

It also portrays business as being very sordid (probably not too accurately). But it is very open about it. Want to win an account? Set up the client with hookers and you get the business. Then just keep doing that on a regular basis and you keep the business.

Both shows have flawed characters. Both shows have characters that don't live up to traditional values. Andy Griffith was subversive at the time. Mad Men is subversive in retrospect.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

^^^^
Wow :eeek:

 

[LizzieMaine]

There was a reason for the popularity of single-parent shows in the sixties, and it had nothing to do with flouting of convention. The theory at the time was that the viewer -- specifically the female viewer, the target of most of the advertising -- wanted to interject herself into the family depicted, thus increasing her identification with the characters, her interest in the series, and her loyalty to the product. This is why you never heard anything about Andy Taylor's late wife -- it would have spoiled the illusion that the viewer herself was Andy's wife. It was a half-baked idea cooked up by the Boys From Marketing, but it was very trendy in the early sixties: witness such programs as "My Three Sons," and "Bachelor Father" in addition to "Griffith," and how rare it was to see single-mother shows at that time.

The head writer for "Griffith" during its most popular period, John Whedon, had followed precisely the same structure with "The Great Gildersleeve" on radio in the 1940s -- a family headed by a single man, with a sexually-non-threatening housekeeper, and a sponsor targeting its sales pitches to women.

 

[vitanola]

Imagine!

Aspiring to be Mrs Throckmorton P. Gildersleeve!

The ming boggles.

I gather that that prim Mr. J. L. K. was not behind this.

 

[ButteMT61]

^^^^Wow :eeek:

And here I thought the deepest question on Mayberry RFD was how many bullets Barney kept loaded in his gun...

 

[sheeplady]

Hmmm... I personally always thought it was interesting that Andy Taylor didn't feel that he should marry to provide a mother for his child (I believe I saw that at least once where someone mentioned it or said it and he thought about it). I know Aunt Bea was pressured in one episode to take a husband she disliked to "get out of Andy's hair" so that he could bring a wife home; but when Andy realized she was not in love (he thought she was) he strongly discouraged her from getting married.

I thought it was quite moral of a show not to focus on people making stupid marriage decisions (marrying when they aren't ready or in love) just to ensure that their child had a mother or that they "freed up space in the house." I think society would be well served if more people made marriage a more serious decision and weren't so quick to jump the gun because their child "needs a father" or "needs a mother." A child does a heck of a lot better with one parent who is a good parent than one parent who is a good parent in a bad relationship, possible with a bad person.

I don't feel that family values back then meant getting married just for the sake of getting married. I almost feel like we have that a lot more now.