Why did we make ourselves into walking advertisements?

[LizzieMaine]

Is it time to criticize the wearing of religious garb and adornments and hair styles in public, too? Are hijabs and yarmulkes, along with crosses on necklaces, more than the public should bear?

I feel so dirty for talking with a Mennonite man and wife this morning when I was admiring his hat.

I couldn't care less what people wear, and I don't know personally know anyone who cares the least bit about religious garb of any belief system, denomination, sect, cult, or rite. Go down the street dressed up as Quetzalcoatl, Ganesha, or the Archbishop of Canterbury for all I care. Just be careful, those rusty storm drains are murder on the hem of one's cassock.

Worth remembering, though: "And all their works they do for to be seen of men. For they make their phylacteries broad, and enlarge their fringes." -- Matt. 23:5, Douay Version.

I often get mistaken for a Mennonite because I usually wear a head rag. "No," I say, "I'm a 'too friggin' lazy to take the pins out today-ite.'"

 

[2jakes]

 

[Bigger Don]

"Two men went up to the temple to pray, the one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer; the Pharisee having stood by himself, thus prayed: God, I thank Thee that I am not as the rest of men, rapacious, unrighteous, adulterers, or even as this tax-gatherer; I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all things -- as many as I possess. And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God be propitious to me -- the sinner! I say to you, this one went down declared righteous, to his house, rather than that one: for every one who is exalting himself shall be humbled, and he who is humbling himself shall be exalted."
-- Luke 18:10-14, Young's Literal Translation.

Baseball players are like the Pharisees? Tell me how.

Are not those giving thanks to God humbling themselves before Him?

To what point should we, as a society, excoriate public expression of religion? Are wearing of yarmulkes, hijabs, turbans & kirpans, Roman collars, and/or Christian crosses socially acceptable but bowing, crossing oneself, etc not? Should public officials be trashed for expressing their faith? Should I complain when the local Islamic Center holds an Eid celebration in the park at the end of my street, a day long celebration I can hear from my yard? (I find the soccer tournaments more obnoxious because they draw people who cannot drive.) If Muslims with whom I work schedule their meetings so as to have time to pray, or Jews schedule vacation time for the High Holy Days, should I complain? (IMO, that's better than the organizer of the NCAA tournament brackets interrupting work.) How about when a Muslim declines a group lunch because it's Is a Diwali observation in the work place too much to bear without bad-mouthing the organizers? Is "bless you" said to someone who sneezes over-the-top? How about wishing someone "Merry Christmas" or putting a creche on one's front lawn?

In short, I find this hoopla over a few people expressing their religious beliefs to be a bit silly when our society is replete with a wide variety of public expression of religious beliefs. As my former neighbor, a Pakistani Muslim married to an Indian woman said, the beauty of this country is it is proof that all religions can live in peace.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I really couldn't care less if you sacrifice a red ox on your front lawn at high noon as long as you don't stink up the neighborhood with the smoke.

As for sports, I do doubt very much that Yahweh, Vishnu, Jesus Christ, Allah, or Ahura Mazda could care less if some football player scores a touchdown, or a baseball team wins a game. If God cared at all about baseball, he'd have kept the Dodgers in Brooklyn.

Seriously, I think that dragging the Deity into such trivialities trivializes faith, and an athlete who feels it necessary to go into a dramatic public praise-the-lord after achieving some trivial goal in front of fifty thousand people may very well be motivated by the same sort of motivations that drove the Pharisees. Look How Righteous and God Fearing I Am! Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, all is vanity and a striving after the wind.

As far as persecution goes, it's persecution when a mob beats you nearly to death because you, say, don't salute the flag because it's against your religion. It's not persecution when somebody criticizes your Facebook posts or says "Season's Greetings" to you in December, or calls your yard shrine tacky.

 

[2jakes]

One time, while getting ready to hit with Steffi Graf.
(World’s #1 tennis player at the time).

What went through my mind prior to stepping up to the baseline:
“oh god, please don’t let me hit a dumb shot.”

In my mind, it did help saying it
although I didn't expect a miricle.

Nevertheless, she wiped me out.
I won two points in the entire match.
She was being kind.

Wasn’t going to put a Christmas tree this year.
But realized that was selfish.
Now Polo will have fun knocking it down.

And a Happy New Year to
LizzieMaine.

With the hope that the Fall is swift,
and Spring arrives soon
to melt the seasonal depression
which includes me as well.

In the meantime,
cup of hot cocoa will do.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Send 'em a letter to let them know how little you appreciate them exercising two of their 1st Amendment rights. Send a couple of others to Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama to complain about their proclamations of faith.

The 1st Amendment doesn't absolve someone of being a jackass.

I always thought the chest-thump-point, no matter who did it, was a thanks-from-me-to-You, not a claim of fandom.

Again, I just have a hard time believing that the reason you got a base bit was because God likes you better than the pitcher. But perhaps they've removed "pride" from then deadly sin list in the more hip versions.

 

[Fading Fast]

I have never walked through a mine field, but feel like posting anything here on this topic might be, but I'm going to tell my little anecdote anyway.

We bought our apartment a few years ago and over time have met our neighbors which is the usual collection of everything - religions, ethnicities, nationalities, sexual orientations, etc. - as this is NYC. I'm in the camp, do whatever, be whatever, believe whatever you want just don't push it on me aggressively and we'll get along fine.

My girlfriend cooks and bakes a lot and has made cookies and cakes for our neighbors just as a friendly thing to do. One of our neighbors, whose apartment we can see partly into and vice versa (the building juts out and in, here and there), is Orthodox Jewish so we asked another neighbor who knows them well if they'd be offended if we made them cookies knowing that they have strict dietary rules. She said they "kinda keep Kosher" but aren't strict about it.

So we gave them the cookies and, coincidentally, I ran into the wife in the street a few days later. She thanked me (us) again (in addition to the email and handwritten note she had sent) and then asked me if we had thought about where in our living room we were going to put our Christmas tree. Being this was May, I thought it a bit odd and then thought maybe they didn't want it right near the window that they can see clearly from their apartment. Recognize this all happened in a split second, but I thought I should be free to put it wherever I want in my apartment but also, maybe, it is rude to shove it right in their view.

Before I could fully form my thoughts let alone a response, she followed up with the comment that the owners before us had always put it right in the window they could see into and were hoping we'd do the same as they loved seeing the Christmas tree from their apartment.

That's how it all should work. This will be our first Christmas in the apartment and we are leaning heavily to just putting the tree there in the same corner so that our neighbors can enjoy it: What the heck, if we can place our Christmas tree in a way that makes our Orthodox Jewish neighbors happy because they can see it, then we probably should. In a crazy way, seems like it would be in the spirit of Christmas.

 

[Bigger Don]

I really couldn't care less if you sacrifice a red ox on your front lawn at high noon as long as you don't stink up the neighborhood with the smoke.

How does a baseball player, by pointing to the sky, "stink up the (metaphorical) neighborhood?

motivations

Ah, and there it is! Making assumptions about the motivations of others can drive to intolerant conclusions not based on facts in evidence.

As far as persecution goes ...

As far as "persecution", that's a word I do not believe I've used. I am pointing to the intolerance towards public expressions of religion. I would never excuse less extreme intolerance based on the reality there are worse examples.

It's not persecution when somebody criticizes your Facebook posts

Like I said, I haven't used the word "persecution", but let's look at this in the realm of the discussion regarding religious expression. Should we, as a society, excoriate people for expressing their thanks to God or Allah or Yahweh or whomever on Facebook. Perhaps, as an alternative, we should be tolerant of their postings. No?

says "Season's Greetings"

They deserve the same respectful tolerance as those who say "Merry Christmas". One group, who prefers one of these sayings, shouldn't excoriate the other for their choice. It's a matter of living in a diverse, tolerant society.

calls your yard shrine tacky.

Some "yard shrines" are tacky, and this gets us to an interesting point. I came here for the hats. I've been exposed to a wider philosophy re living a lifestyle that I admit I don't truly understand the underlying belief system. Do I criticize it, or do I read on? Here's a hint.

 

[Bigger Don]

I have never walked through a mine field, but feel like posting anything here on this topic might be, but I'm going to tell my little anecdote anyway.

We bought our apartment a few years ago and over time have met our neighbors which is the usual collection of everything - religions, ethnicities, nationalities, sexual orientations, etc. - as this is NYC. I'm in the camp, do whatever, be whatever, believe whatever you want just don't push it on me aggressively and we'll get along fine.

My girlfriend cooks and bakes a lot and has made cookies and cakes for our neighbors just as a friendly thing to do. One of our neighbors, whose apartment we can see partly into and vice versa (the building juts out and in, here and there), is Orthodox Jewish so we asked another neighbor who knows them well if they'd be offended if we made them cookies knowing that they have strict dietary rules. She said they "kinda keep Kosher" but aren't strict about it.

So we gave them the cookies and, coincidentally, I ran into the wife in the street a few days later. She thanked me (us) again (in addition to the email and handwritten note she had sent) and then asked me if we had thought about where in our living room we were going to put our Christmas tree. Being this was May, I thought it a bit odd and then thought maybe they didn't want it right near the window that they can see clearly from their apartment. Recognize this all happened in a split second, but I thought I should be free to put it wherever I want in my apartment but also, maybe, it is rude to shove it right in their view.

Before I could fully form my thoughts let alone a response, she followed up with the comment that the owners before us had always put it right in the window they could see into and were hoping we'd do the same as they loved seeing the Christmas tree from their apartment.

That's how it all should work. This will be our first Christmas in the apartment and we are leaning heavily to just putting the tree there in the same corner so that our neighbors can enjoy it: What the heck, if we can place our Christmas tree in a way that makes our Orthodox Jewish neighbors happy because they can see it, then we probably should. In a crazy way, seems like it would be in the spirit of Christmas.

Excellent story!

Contrary to perceptions, even midwest suburbia has religious diversity. During the week I will by Sikh, Muslim, Hindu, and a wide myriad of Christian facilities. I'm sure I left someone out there.

That said, the Muslim lady across the street used to provide us with a little Eid treat each year and Nawaz, her husband, would call out "Merry Christmas!" each December 25th.

Now, while we have a bit of religious diversity in the area we also have a fairly strong old boy, work on your car in the driveway behavior. Nawaz is from Pakistan, his wife from India. One Thanksgiving, Nawaz, their three sons, and his father-in-law were replacing the radiator on his car. I told him he had certainly assimilated since we could ride around and find a lot of "other" rednecks working on their cars on Thanksgiving.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Again, I just have a hard time believing that the reason you got a base bit was because God likes you better than the pitcher. But perhaps they've removed "pride" from then deadly sin list in the more hip versions.

This is pretty much it. Pointing to the sky when you get a hit or falling down on your knees in the end zone after scoring a touchdown has nothing to do with praising God. It's making sure the television cameras linger on you just that bit much longer.

Not that this is a new thing. I remember a game way back in the antediluvian times where Reggie Jackson hit a monster-sized home run and he pointed to the sky after running the bases, and the crowd went wild. But he wasn't pointing to heavenly realms, he was pointing to the owners' box, where Mr. Finley sat, and he had his middle finger extended.

 

[Bigger Don]

The 1st Amendment doesn't absolve someone of being a jackass.

Was Cleveland Indian Rajai Davis also being a "jackass" when he tied the game with a homer?

Again, I just have a hard time believing that the reason you got a base bit was because God likes you better than the pitcher.

I have a hard time believing there is evidence this was his thought process.

But perhaps they've removed "pride" from then deadly sin list in the more hip versions.

Dunno. I wasn't the one who started the Bible quoting. Guess the only socially acceptable mode, when playing for the other team, is to act like the Frozen Chosen.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Some "yard shrines" are tacky, and this gets us to an interesting point. I came here for the hats. I've been exposed to a wider philosophy re living a lifestyle that I admit I don't truly understand the underlying belief system. Do I criticize it, or do I read on? Here's a hint.

You'll find an awful lot more around here than just hats, but you'll also find that there are a great many people who see no particular need to agree with you, just as you don't agree with me. That, I believe, is the real meaning of diversity -- it's understanding that people are going to disagree with you and not taking it personally.

Clearly this is an important issue to you, and you're certainly entitled to express your opinion all you want. You and I clearly look at religion from a different perspective -- I gather you're a rather conservative Catholic, and I'm a lapsed Social Creed-following/grape-juice drinking left-wing Methodist who has come to believe that "religion" and "Christianity" are two very different things. And because of that I'm strongly suspicious of effusive public displays of "religion," because it seems to me that they have less to do with sincerely praising God than with calling attention to the praiser's own perceived righteousness, whether thru the display itself or thru the publicity whipped up by the deliberate controversy that it was intended to generate. ("Christmas warriors" please copy.) You are free to agree or disagree with that statement however you see fit, but it remains my belief.

I have no plans to rush onto the field and grab the arm of some ball player and force him not to point it skyward when he's hot-dogging his way around the bases, any more than I would rush onto the field and beat that Colin guy over the head with a flag for not saluting. But I reserve the right to conclude that one is sincere in his beliefs and one is hamming it up for the camera.

 

[Bigger Don]

Pointing to the sky when you get a hit or falling down on your knees in the end zone after scoring a touchdown has nothing to do with praising God.

Based on what evidence?

It's making sure the television cameras linger on you just that bit much longer.

And if their motivation is to keep in people's minds praising God is a something they promote, where does the circular logic go in that direction.

I remember a game way back in the antediluvian times where Reggie Jackson hit a monster-sized home run and he pointed to the sky after running the bases, and the crowd went wild. But he wasn't pointing to heavenly realms, he was pointing to the owners' box, where Mr. Finley sat, and he had his middle finger extended.

How is this evidence of what was in the mind of a specific player, decades later?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Based on what evidence?

You first.

How is this evidence of what was in the mind of a specific player, decades later?

Simply throwing out for consideration the fact that flamboyant hot-doggery has been a part of baseball for a very long time, and it's not beyond the realm of possiblity that modern practitioners of attention-getting gestures on the field might just possibly have more in common with the said Mr. Jackson -- who never met a camera he couldn't hog -- than they do with Wesley, Wycliffe, Luther, Huss, Waldo, or St. John the Divine.

 

[Bigger Don]

That, I believe, is the real meaning of diversity -- it's understanding that people are going to disagree with you and not taking it personally.

I'm sorry. I see nowhere where I have taken anything as a personal affront I have consistently made this about the principle of religious tolerance, doing my best to avoid making this about another poster, their beliefs, politics, biases, etc. We disagree. I try to present my side by expressing its foundation. That's how civil discussions are conducted.

Clearly this is an important issue to you, and you're certainly entitled to express your opinion all you want.

It's clearly important to both of us. I've not felt, in any way, that anyone has suggested I wasn't entitled to express my opinion, accepting the host's admonition we keep partisan politics out of it. I hope I've not suggested that others aren't entitled to express theirs.

conservative Catholic, and I'm a lapsed Social Creed-following/grape-juice drinking left-wing Methodist

Hmmm...lapsed Catholic. The last two times I was in a Catholic church were, if I remember correctly, my father's funeral (he converted from Church of Christ shortly after I was born) and when I popped in to visit a high school friend when I was in the neighborhood. That's a twenty-plus year period. Nowadays I'm also a lapsed Lutheran because the two congregations with which I worshipped got into internal political nonsense. The former was over whether the new hymns were worthy of God...hmmm, not unlike the discussion we're having here. I still have weekly breakfast with men from the second and am friends with many from the first.

As to conservative, look somewhere in the junctures of Jefferson, Madison, Kennedy, and Reagan; Lincoln's and Washington's greatness at critical junctures notwithstanding.

So, what does my call for tolerance have to do with politics or religious affiliation?

But I reserve the right to conclude that one is sincere in his beliefs and one is hamming it up for the camera.

Conclude away, but assumptions and beliefs are not evidence that sway me.

 

[Bigger Don]

You first.

Your assertion. Your onus of evidence.

But, then again, if I simply accept this is what you believe, we can leave it at that.

Simply throwing out for consideration the fact that flamboyant hot-doggery has been a part of baseball for a very long time, and it's not beyond the realm of possiblity that modern practitioners of attention-getting gestures on the field might just possibly have more in common with the said Mr. Jackson -- who never met a camera he couldn't hog -- than they do with Wesley, Wycliffe, Luther, Huss, Waldo, or St. John the Divine.

Celebration of victory, including "hot dogging", is not simply a baseball thing, or a sports thing. I would not be surprised if some original Olympians in ancient Greece didn't thank their favorite god(s) when they did well.

But, in 21st century America, shouldn't we be tolerant of a diversity of religious expressions? Should we call into question the motives of all public religious expressions?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I see no reason why we shouldn't, especially given the way in which religion often sees fit to thrust itself into the public sphere. In such cases it should -- and must -- be criticized and examined as freely and as openly as any other philosophy or means of social engagement.

Personally, I find "tolerance" often a very condescending thing -- "you're different, you're outside the norm, but we 'tolerate' you -- as long as you don't threaten our hegemony -- because we're that big-hearted and righteous. Come here and let us pat you on the head, there, innat nice?" I don't go in for that kind of patronizing "tolerance" from the dominant culture, because it assumes that a dominant class is entitled to be in such a position so as to grant such "tolerance" -- and the people I know who are thus "tolerated," to be honest, don't think much of it either.

I firmly support the freedom to practice your beliefs as long as they don't harm anyone else -- but that doesn't mean anyone's beliefs or practices are to be restricted from criticism if the believer chooses to make a public issue of those beliefs or practices. At no time have I, or anyone else, suggested any sort of rule or regulation to squelch such practices as are under discussion here. People can point, bow, kneel, genuflect, or sacrifice doves at home plate if they want to. And I, and others, can freely question their motivation in doing so and the appropriateness of the venue. I offer no apology for doing so, and I think my criticism is actually pretty mild and innocuous. Jesus called the religious practitioners of his day hypocrites, serpents, offspring of vipers, and whitewashed tombs filled with dead men's bones, among other endearments, chased them out of the temple yard with a whip, and promised that not one stone of that temple would be left standing. Moses crushed the golden calf to powder and forced its worshipers to swallow it. I'm hardly that extreme.

And I really don't care if I sway you or not -- I'm not out to sway you. I'm merely *disagreeing* with you. You're free to take that or leave it as you see fit. If someone wants to believe that the Supreme Being of the Universe spends his time influencing the outcome of ballgames, they're perfectly free to believe that. Just don't expect me to take it seriously as an exhibition of deep religious faith, because I don't, can't, and won't.

Hot-dogging, in baseball culture, has long been considered a demonstration of poor sportsmanship. It doesn't matter to me if it's wrapped in a cloak of "religion" or not. The late Red Sox relief pitcher Dick Radatz, who started the modern hot-dog trend in the sixties with his arms-above-the-head-pointing-upward gesture, was at least honest about it -- he freely acknowledged, during his years as a sport-talk radio host in Boston, that he did it to draw attention to himself and to upset and annoy the other team. I see no "evidence," and no "evidence" has been produced, to suggest that any of the others who make similar gestures are doing it for any other reason than to call attention to themselves and show up the other team. Wrapping it in a cloak of "faith" is just an attempt to place poor sportsmanship above criticism. I'm not buying it.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Was Cleveland Indian Rajai Davis also being a "jackass" when he tied the game with a homer?

Possibly. Either way it's not an infringement of his Constitutional rights to think so.

Dunno. I wasn't the one who started the Bible quoting. Guess the only socially acceptable mode, when playing for the other team, is to act like the Frozen Chosen.

False dichotomy. Being an ass or a soulless robot are not the only options. I get that some people like the over the top, look at me celebrations and gamesmanship. I'm not one of them. Your mileage may vary though.

 

[2jakes]

I “like" that different views can be expressed as has been done here
which is very enlightening and I’m the better for it.
Something which I don't see in other forums as much.

 

[ChrisB]

Possibly. Either way it's not an infringement of his Constitutional rights to think so.



False dichotomy. Being an ass or a soulless robot are not the only options. I get that some people like the over the top, look at me celebrations and gamesmanship. I'm not one of them. Your mileage may vary though.

It's a two way street: you are free to point to the sky after getting a base hit, and I am free to express the opinion that it is silly. Neither one is infringing the rights of the other.