Who, what, where, Allesandria?

[shortbow]

I have two Borsalino OR clones that I have in the past referred to as "Allesandrias." However, the longer I hang around the Lounge, I am getting more and more dubious as to the correctness of that word as designating a model name. Can anyone set me straight?

 

[Dinerman]

If allesandria is marked on the front of the sweatband, then it's a model name.

 

[duggap]

Look at Bencraft Hatters website, he carries that model.

 

[shortbow]

Ahhh. Very interesting. Those hats on the Bencraft site are very similar, but my hats have a slightly narrower band and brim widths of 2 3/4" and 2 7/8" respectively. One is brown the other silver belly.

Also, near as I can figure, mine are from the fifties. Neither has plastic in the crown of the liner and the word Allesandria makes up part of the logo under the crest which is on the liner, not the band. The sweatbands carry only the Borsalino name, the "original house..." mark, the retailer's names and the owner's initials.

 

[Dinerman]

then it's probably not an "alessandria" model, but close, and after all it's just a model name.

Probably like the difference between the styles of a stetson open road, a stetson 25, and a stetson western royal. All pretty much the same styling, subtle differences, but nothing all that major other than the markings.

 

[shortbow]

Thanks a lot, Dinerman. Unfortunately, you point up another area of inexpertese for me, as the Stetsons you list confuse the hell outa me as well.lol

 

[HarpPlayerGene]

Well, now isn't this interesting. I've been calling all my Borsalinos with "Alessandria" in the crown Alessandria's. My Borso with "Trionfo" in the crown I call a Trionfo. I thought those were model names - but I do admit the ""Alessandrias"" do differ in styling across my collection. I just assumed that was due to different eras but now I've learned another fun, fascinating fact on The Fedora Lounge!

 

[duggap]

Gene, I am with you. I thought if that name was there then it was that model but I think Dinerman has a valid point. For example, I got the Como from Bencraft Hatters and it has Trionfo on the crest. There are some folks on the Lounge who know quite a bit about Borsolinos so maybe they will come forward. But I am beginning to believe Dinerman is correct.[huh]

 

[jimmy the lid]

For some time now, the thin-ribboned OR-style Borsalino has been dubbed the "Allesandria." I don't know how long this name has been used to describe that particular model -- I can definitely remember Worth & Worth catalogues from the early 80's describing it as the "Allesandria." I'd be curious to know when Borsalino actually started using that term to describe that particular model of hat. Since that's what Borsalino calls this lid now, I tend to use the term generically to describe a vintage lid with the same look:

So -- does anyone know when "Allesandria" was first used as the actual name of a lid?

Cheers,
JtL

 

[feltfan]

If allesandria is marked on the front of the sweatband, then it's a model name.

As far as I can tell, this was only true during part of Borsalino's
history. Presumably all the hats in the Borsalino line had model names,
but no more than half seem to carry a name on the sweat. My guess
would be mid-fifties to the 70s. Perhaps Besdor knows more.

A few other things to note:

• 
  A suspicious number of the model names are in English (e.g., Featherweight, Lightweight)

• 
  Alessandria is the city in which a Borsalino factory was located

• 
  Some model names are not on the sweatband, such as Trionfo

• 
  Sometimes the sweatband carries an X designation, not a model name

I think we should all know by now that hat models and quality designations
are not an exact science. We have good reason to think that major
Borsalino retailers (e.g.,Minelli of Florence, Luzzi of Rome, and
Fabrizi of Rome) had a lot of leeway in contributing to the design and
manufacture of liners and sweatbands, particularly since the liners
were often co-labeled. So it's tough to be confident of any sweeping
assertions about old Borsalinos (or Stetsons or...).

 

[mineral]

Some model names are not on the sweatband, such as Trionfo

Unless I am badly mistaken, Trionfo (like "Augusta") is a quality designation.

For instance, there's a (modern) "Savona" model hat on eBay right now with a Trionfo on the liner logo. Along with duggap's description, we can see that "Trionfo" is something that can go along with various hat models.

There was also an auction on eBay quite a while back where some interesting (vintage) periphrenalia from the Guiseppe Gallieni hat store in Rome was included with a (vintage) Borsalino homburg hat. (Maybe someone can dig up the relevant link?) One of them was a card with the following list:

> Trionfo
> Castoro xx
> Marque Grand Luxe xxxxx
> Velour "Six Stars"
> Ladies' Hats
> Ladies' Berets
> Florentine Straw Hats
> Panama

[N.B. "Castoro" means beaver.]

I would interpret the list as follows. The first four are a quality (and price) designation, going from lowest to highest, where the Velour "Six Stars" is of the highest quality, followed by the Marque Grand Luxe "Five Stars" and the Castoro "Two Stars". The Trionfo doesn't get a star designation so maybe the trionfo hats are not beaver hats (or maybe hats with low beaver percentages?).

Although given that we do see that Marque Grand Luxe can have six stars, as we see in this beautiful hat:

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=14349

we do not find a helpful one to one correspondence between the number of stars and the quality designation.

 

[shortbow]

Curiouser and curiouser....[huh]

 

[Lefty]

I'm also not sure how Zenit (Zenith) fits into this mess, but it appears in some of their old ads and on both liners and sweats.

Zenit on the sweat.

Today's wool felt.

1925 (Many people are questioning whether the Italian cherub team is using steroids.)

no date

 

[Lefty]

This is exactly what I read yesterday in Hat Talk. Allessandria just became the general term for the Borso OR look. Based upon the estimation by a former higher up in Stetson that the OR was the most popular selling model in history (though he was unsure whether the Indiana Jones model may have surpassed it), I wouldn't be surprised if Borsalino was cranking these out so as not to lose their customers who wanted the OR look.

then it's probably not an "alessandria" model, but close, and after all it's just a model name.

Probably like the difference between the styles of a stetson open road, a stetson 25, and a stetson western royal. All pretty much the same styling, subtle differences, but nothing all that major other than the markings.

 

[mineral]

I'm also not sure how Zenit (Zenith) fits into this mess, but it appears in some of their old ads and on both liners and sweats.

I would think "Zenit" is a quality designation similar to "Marque Grand Luxe". If we look at this ad:

http://cgi.ebay.it/PUBBLICITA-CAPPE...219879940QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item140219879940

we read:

"Il Cappello 'Zenit'
La Prima Marca Italiana di Gran Lusso"

I would think that means that "Zenit" is the version of Marque Grand Luxe marketed to Italians? "Marque Grand Luxe" are French words after all (which, unless my knowledge of Latin languages completely fail me, mean the same as "Marca Gran Lusso"). The card I referred to above is in English, so the label of "Marque Grand Luxe" might be reserved for tourists in Italy.

 

[Lefty]

That sounds good, but I don't know. To me, the only obvious words in the ad are at the top, which would read The Hat Zenith, which would just be puffing - like saying they're the greatest hats (unless it's The Zenith Hat, meaning that the hats show in the ad are the top of the line - man, this is no help at all :eusa_doh

I think we need some help from an Italian speaking Lounger.

 

[mineral]

I think we need some help from an Italian speaking Lounger.

Yes. That would be very helpful indeed.

Too bad we don't have some 90 year old gentleman who bought these things back in the day to help us out.

To me, the only obvious words in the ad are at the top, which would read The Hat Zenith, which would just be puffing - like saying they're the greatest hats (unless it's The Zenith Hat, meaning that the hats show in the ad are the top of the line - man, this is no help at all :eusa_doh

I would tend to think that the hats are all top of the line in the ad. If we look closely at the ad, we see the Zenit logo in the ad you posted earlier:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk14/erikandgina/hats/borsalino1925.jpg

which is also visible in the Zenit hat in the thread you linked to:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/Greghats/DSC_0106.jpg

I would think that any Zenit hat with the logo actually is "Zenit" quality?

Now I could only wonder how "Qualita Superiore", "Qualita Extra Superiore", "Qualita Extra Extra Superiore", "Qualita Suprema" fit into this scheme. (I have a suspicion those are all sub-Trionfo designations, and I could only envy whoever lucky enough to have a Trionfo + ....)

 

[Lefty]

You're probably right, but I'm a skeptic. During whatever era the hat was made, it may have been common to put Zenit in every, or most every hat, the way that so many Stetsons are Royal. Though Royal may have had a particular quality meaning at one point, its meaning between its first use and its use today has certainly changed. Even less to quality, and as I was suggesting before, Zenit may have been used in a puffing manner, like "quality."

That card that you referenced is about the closest thing to a Rosetta Stone that this forum has ever seen. If only we could find one for Stetson.

If we look closely at the ad, we see the Zenit logo in the ad you posted earlier:

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk14/erikandgina/hats/borsalino1925.jpg

which is also visible in the Zenit hat in the thread you linked to:

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g222/Greghats/DSC_0106.jpg

I would think that any Zenit hat with the logo actually is "Zenit" quality?

 

[shortbow]

So at the end of the day, If you have an OR clone Borsalino hat of whatever mark or vintage, and whether or not strictly right in a legalistic sense, one could legitimately refer to the hat as an Alessandria?

 

[Lefty]

Yep

...or Allessandria style anyway - in the same way that a Dobbs or an Adam can never be an Open Road, but they can have OR style.