Who took the "Swing" out of swing dancing?

[Rundquist]

Is that an onion on your belt? lol

Grandpa Simpson, I salute you.

 

[Honey Doll]

Our swing scene...

We have a pretty dedicated swing dance network here. There is a dance once a month with a band, and yes...they actually play swing music. There are also DJ'd swing-ins usually at a local church hall. The scene has changed though over the years.....gone are the days of people showing up in vintage or vintage inspired dress. The dancers have trended to a smoother looking lindy with some balboa instead of that wild fast pace lindy I love.

The dances here aren't associated with a commercial venue. You pay to dance and they only thing served is water. Because the group isn't making profit, but only covering the costs of the hall and band swing is still going here.

Honey Doll

 

[fortworthgal]

I'm with WildRoot on this one. Call me a purist, elitist, whatever - I don't care. lol When I go to a swing dance, I wanna hear swing music! I don't mind the 1950s or rockabilly stuff thrown in, or neo-swing, because to me that just goes along with the territory and it fits with the overall genre. What I don't want to hear is 1970s disco!

We have a good swing scene here, but hardly anyone shows up in vintage or even vintage-inspired. The live bands once a month are good, but they do mix in a lot of 1970s and 80s tunes that I don't care for. I just sit those out. Any time they're playing pre-recorded music, it is almost exclusively 30s-50s big band/swing music, though. There's a lot of latin and tango music played, which I also don't particularly care for, but I guess the people who take Argentine tango lessons need a chance to show off too. Heck, the last hangar dance I attended, they played a mix of latin music and modern country! The floor was filled with two-steppers. (Atomic Glee can back me up on this.) I'd expect that at a C&W dance - but a swing dance? I kept expecting to hear the Cotton-Eyed Joe. No thanks!

One thing I have noticed about the swing scene around here is that very few of the dancers seem to have any interest at all in the golden era. They seem to be focused only on the dancing, and not on the era from which the dancing evolved, or the music that inspired it. Kind of surprising to me. As someone who has studied & taught Irish dance for years and now dances swing, I just don't understand how you can be interested in a style of dance, but not the total package.

 

[Paisley]

Trying to Recreate the Dance; Clothing

Why do people love to swing dance even if they aren't interested in a particular time? I say it's for the same reason that people first started swing dancing: because it's fun.

Some of our dance teachers do talk about where lindy, balboa and other dances came from. In one class, the teacher said that the dancing of the 30s couldn't really be recreated because the dancers are different. Black people in the 20s, 30s and 40s led lives that were much harder than that of a typical white 20-something in 2006. It's the idea that artists have to suffer to make great works.

One of my dance partners is very familiar with the 30s and 40s, since he grew up then. Once in a while, he talks about what it was like then, but I think we both prefer to talk about the present.

As for the rest of my dance partners, the subject of the Golden Era rarely comes up. Mostly, we talk about work, projects, music, dancing--stuff that dance partners probably talked about in the 30s and 40s.

As for vintage clothing, I have some vintage clothing (suits), but I don't wear it dancing. For one thing, it's too hot to wear anything but a cotton shirt and lightweight pants or skirt, and for another, I wouldn't want to ruin a good vintage piece with sweat stains.

A large portion of the swing dancers here are college students. For some of them, it's hard to afford the cover charge, low as it is. I know at least some of them are serious students in challenging degree programs and I don't imagine they have time to make or shop for dance clothes. Besides, not everybody used to dressed to the nines to go dancing. My uncle, who along with my aunt was a dancing fanatic, went dancing in his work clothes. He was a lineman. He would call my aunt and have her meet him at some club near wherever he'd been working.

 

[Rundquist]

For many people a scene has to change and evolve to continue to be exciting. These changes bring in new people which adds to the evolution of things. All of this tends to be a detraction to the PURISTS! Business wise a business will attempt to appeal to the widest audience. Only if a clearly viable example of success with the purist approach is shown as a wining prosition otherwise the business men won't cater to the purists.

The only thing is knowledge is power and an educated audience learns to apprieciate things more and more so it is possible to be a proponent of the Purist Movement and sway more to the cause. If you can get a group of purists up to dance at a club for the real stuff then maybe the generalists will equate the real deal with what they want to be doing.

Any of this make sense?

I’ve got pages & pages of stuff that I’ve written for this thread and I just can’t seem to arrange it in a way that reads properly. John has stated one of my main points very well. You guys should not forget that the whole “swing” market is a very small niche.

The 90’s swing movement is dead and never to return (and I say good riddance). What attracted the populace out there was the window dressing anyway. Neo-swing for the most part was terrible. I do think though that the movement gave the real swing people a false sense of their numbers. If you want your “scene” to be the way you want it, you guys are going to have to band together as best you can and make a concerted effort. Musical snobbery needs to go out the door. That’s coming from the biggest musical snob that I know, me. Cheers

 

[Rundquist]

Some of our dance teachers do talk about where lindy, balboa and other dances came from. In one class, the teacher said that the dancing of the 30s couldn't really be recreated because the dancers are different. Black people in the 20s, 30s and 40s led lives that were much harder than that of a typical white 20-something in 2006. It's the idea that artists have to suffer to make great works.

Absolutely. Dancing and music wasn’t a pass time. It was a release from a crappy living. I’ve heard the same thing said about Mambo music of the 50’s & 60’s. You can’t recreate that.

 

[Paisley]

If you want your “scene” to be the way you want it, you guys are going to have to band together as best you can and make a concerted effort. Musical snobbery needs to go out the door.

Really? Denver has a good swing scene. Live music once a week, DJs three nights a week, and more if you want to drive a ways. During the summer, one of the venues in particular is packed. Our teachers (23 Skidoo) win national titles.

How much disco, hip-hop, 80s techno-pop and other non-swing music do we dance to? Pretty close to none.

But I definitely agree that people need to get together and make an effort if they want things to improve. 23 Skidoo has worked very, very hard to put together great classes and promote swing dancing.

There are some "swing dances" around here that play everything from soup to nuts, but they don't have nearly the energy or quality of dancing. If that's all that were available to me, I wouldn't attend it. Not out of snobbery, but I've been to those dances, and I just don't have a good time there. I'd sooner call up some friends, invite them over, put on some Benny Goodman and roll up the carpets!

 

[Wild Root]

Well, I wouldn't consider my self a musical snob... but, I do believe in types of music that are appropriate for different types of dances. Who's going to polka to KISS? Who would brake dance to Beethoven? I'm an organized person, I believe there are styles of music better suited for dancing the Jitterbug. Jazz and swing music isn't musty old music from the 20's to the 40's... not at all, it's considered America's "Classical" musical period... it was invented here, it's special.

I learned to dance because I love the music of that time... I only go out now to places that play music I can dance to.

People can dance to what ever music they want... but me, I'm a Jitterbug and I will only dance to Jitterbug music... not Michael Jackson or whatever.

I'm pretty awear of how life was back then, I've talked with a number of people who lived then... Frankie Manning comes to mind and also a few others... I've seen plenty of footage of dance contests and saw the real dancers go to town! They all smiled and were happy... they danced like mad and were hard core about it! When I dance to a song I like, I smile and my best moves come out... it's really amazing! A kind older man was at a dance; after the dance, he stopped me; he said: Young man, out of all the dancers on that floor, you were the one having fun! He told me that I was fun to watch and that I was enjoying my self... unlike most of the others who dance with a stone face.

Real Jitterbug music makes me happy and I feel compelled to dance! That's why I like it... it just makes me happy!

=WR=

 

[fortworthgal]

I've seen plenty of footage of dance contests and saw the real dancers go to town! They all smiled and were happy... they danced like mad and were hard core about it! When I dance to a song I like, I smile and my best moves come out... it's really amazing! A kind older man was at a dance; after the dance, he stopped me; he said: Young man, out of all the dancers on that floor, you were the one having fun! He told me that I was fun to watch and that I was enjoying my self... unlike most of the others who dance with a stone face.

Real Jitterbug music makes me happy and I feel compelled to dance! That's why I like it... it just makes me happy!

=WR=

Not to get completely off-topic - but that is exactly what separates a good swing dancer from a great swing dancer. I can think of a perfect example in our local group. There is a girl whose footwork and dancing is technically perfect, but she's always stone-faced and looks like she's bored out of her skull. It is almost painful for me to watch her. Dancing is supposed to be fun! If I'm out there having a good time, I'm usually smiling or even laughing.

I'm with you on this one, WR. Swing dancing needs real swing music. Anything else just ain't right.

 

[Wild Root]

Good to have you on the team Fortworthgal! :eusa_clap

=WR=

 

[Rundquist]

Obviously 80’s music is not the same as Swing, or neo-Swing (or whatever it's called), or rockabilly. But within the confines of the three mentioned above, the dancers should unite, is all I meant. From what I’ve seen there aren’t the numbers to separate each group into a separate demographic. That’s my observation is all. I didn’t say anyone had to like. :eusa_doh:

 

[Paisley]

Looking like you are having a good time (whether you are or not) is one of many things that makes you a better performer. Respectfully, I don't think it makes you a better dancer.

What's the difference? On Dancing with the Stars, Jerry Springer put on a good performance last night. He took the stage looking confident, did the routine, and looked like he was enjoying himself. (In reality, who knows whether he had a bad knee or didn't feel on par with the other dancers?) But his dancing...well, I think he'd better stick to his talk show.

 

[Paisley]

Well, I wouldn't consider my self a musical snob... but, I do believe in types of music that are appropriate for different types of dances. Who's going to polka to KISS? Who would brake dance to Beethoven?

lol

I'm an organized person, I believe there are styles of music better suited for dancing the Jitterbug. Jazz and swing music isn't musty old music from the 20's to the 40's... not at all, it's considered America's "Classical" musical period... it was invented here, it's special.
=WR=

Although these aren't from the "classical" period, would you also include Bobby Darin ("Beyond the Sea" and "Mack the Knife"), later recordings of Ella and Louis ("Dancing Cheek to Cheek" and "Can't take that away from Me"), Sam Cooke ("She was only Sixteen," "Summertime"), "Midnight in Moscow," "Little Bitty Pretty One," Basie's "Moten Swing," et al. as good for swing dance? I would really miss those songs if they weren't played.

 

[Wild Root]

Although these aren't from the "classical" period, would you also include Bobby Darin ("Beyond the Sea" and "Mack the Knife"), later recordings of Ella and Louis ("Dancing Cheek to Cheek" and "Can't take that away from Me"), Sam Cooke ("She was only Sixteen," "Summertime"), "Midnight in Moscow," "Little Bitty Pretty One," Basie's "Moten Swing," et al. as good for swing dance? I would really miss those songs if they weren't played.

Me too! Fun numbers to dance to!

=WR=

 

[Trickeration]

I'm also going to back Root on this. If you go to a swing dance, you should get swing music. I say this as a dancer. I say the following as a musician.

Wildroot, I DJ from time to time and I've gotta say I think it's a bit rude to bring a CD for the DJ to play, it kinda says "man I hate your music, play this, I think my musical choices are better than yours"

As a DJ I am offended by people who run out to their glove compartment and pull out a stack of CD's. I don't care who hands it to me, I just say "thanks but no thanks,burn me a copy and I'll take it home to listen to properly and I may play it on another night if I think it will suit my set, I'm not willing to make a snapp decision on a song which might clear the floor" (which happend in your case)

I think it's a bit like the person who comes to a party at your house with his own music, apparently I'm not capable of making a decison on what my guests might like to listen to.....anyway that's my two cents worth.

Here's my 2 cents...
To start with, I think a DJ at a swing club has just as much chance of clearing the floor as a dancer's request might. Especially if the DJ is not a swing dancer. However, if the club is full of beginners, it's likely that a lesser known swing song might not be as well received as something more familiar.

A DJ (or a band) at a swing club's first concern should be playing "for the dancers". This means watching the crowd. I've both seen and danced with Wild Root and he is clearly an experienced dancer. I would find it odd for someone not to trust his judgement in music after seeing him on the floor. Obviously, the DJ he brought the disc to also trusted him. For swing, sets should be based on what the dancers want and beats per minute (so you don't tire or bore your crowd).

Sure the music might suck and you have every right to leave, but do think og the poor cat trying to do his job, he doesn't need to be pestered by the punter and their musical whims. The same goes for bands, just because the song you'd like is not on the bands playlist is not reason to take it out on them either, they aren't a jukebox, sure ask them when they take a break of they know a song, if they don't the band leader might ask you about the song and try to learn it. I guess what I'm saying is that there is a civil way of doing this.

Make it 4 cents...
As for bands, I've been playing drums for many years, and play in an established (been around since 1958) 17 piece swing band, among others. A good band takes requests, even during the set. It's good for relations and for business. We have over 200 charts in our dance books and our band often changes out songs in sets as we go through the night. If they want it fast we play it fast. More latins? Okay. A polka? If someone asks, it would be rude of us to say "No, I don't want to mess up my Count Basie set". We play for the dancers.

Now obviously a band won't play a song you hand them, but not because it would be rude for someone to give you some music. It would be because it's a little harder to play sheet music cold than to put a CD in a player. But the combos I've been in are willing to wing it. There's been times where someone asked for a song we didn't have. But if the guitar or piano knew it, they'd tell the other guys the chords and my husband (on bass) and I would jump in. Those songs often get the best crowd response, too, because they keep the band from looking like a bunch of stuck up jerks. Once we even had some of the dancers come up and sing. Our singer's dad had had a heart attack and she called while we on the way to the gig to say she wouldn't be there. When some of the dancers heard, they offered to jump in. All we did was check and see if the keys of our songs would work for them and went for it. It turned out to be somewhere between "swing karaoke" and a jam session and the floor was packed the whole night.


You said it yourself. There is a civil way of doing this. That is to remember that the dancer is always right.

 

[koopkooper]

Sure the band and the DJ are there to entertain the public but I do think that way to many dancers are of the opinon that they are the entertainers and that the dancing skills of certain individuals places them in a high and almighty positon to rule.

 

[Benny Holiday]

Good dancers have to 'feel' the music and thrive on its energy

I don't know what goes on abroad, Koop, but as you know, here in Australia there are very few dancers who love the music and therefore feel the rhythm and derive energy from it. The so-called rock'n'roll-swing dance scene here is made up of a majority of middle-aged people who learned to dance at the age of 45 and who've tried with arrogant determination to turn the Swing and Rockabilly scenes into middle-aged singles clubs. They lack both the energy (freestyle 'jive' styles of dance originated with teenagers and young adults, after all) and the passion for the music. The music they listen to at home and so on is 70's or 80's music, which is fine, but if you don't love Swing and groove on it, you ain't gonna be able to feel it.

These people turn up to gigs and demand that the bands play great tunes like 'Take the A Train' and 'Jumpin' at the Woodside' at half-speed, lest they
can't dance to it. They rob the venue, the band, and the music of any dyanmic energy, and those of us who love the music and love to feel the rhythm and dance are left with a boring vacuum. These characters ought to be pensioned off to some old progressive barn dance or something and leave the music alone, to the way it should be played.

As for non-Swing music at a Swing dance, it doesn't make sense to me. The music is a passion that translates into the dance. If you don't like Swing, then go do 80's dancing down at the local retro nightclub or something.

 

[Trickeration]

I still stand by what I say. As entertainers we play for the dancers. But I think that as long as you're playing swing in a swing venue, you're off to a good start. I can understand if you don't want to play something other than a swing song if it's requested, but you really should be open to the needs and requests of the dancers.

In regards to requests, it doesn't always mean that you're playing the wrong music, and you shouldn't take it personally. A dancer may just want to share a new song with his fellow dancers. Or he may want to dance a particular song with a particular girl. However, if you're getting a ton of requests and you're not know for being "the request guy", your set list may need some adjusting. You may get people asking for slower songs if you're playing too many faster ones in a row because you like the energy. A good dance set should have slower tempos mixed in to give the dancers a breather. Same applies for bands.

Koopkooper

I think it's a bit like the person who comes to a party at your house with his own music, apparently I'm not capable of making a decison on what my guests might like to listen to.....anyway that's my two cents worth.

Actually, it was common practice in the 40's and 50's to bring records to a party to share. Here, in our swing scene, we still do. And what kind of host would I be to tell my guest "I know what you like listening to more than you do"?

To both
Now, I'm not entirely sure I understand what your scene is like. You guys both seem pretty unhappy with it. Do either of you play at venues you enjoy? What is your ideal situation?

Also, I hope this is all taken as healthy debate. Trix.

 

[Harp]

Big Bands

I'm currently reading Anton Myrer's The Last Convertible.
In prewar Boston, a gang of Harvard freshmen and dates hit the
local scene and dance to the Basie, Miller, Goodman, Dorsey bands!!;
all without DJs...those were the days....

 

[Benny Holiday]

Our situation is a lot different I'd say, Trix

And hard to describe. Koop is a radio jock who's also spun dics at venues over the years, while I've been performing Rockabilly and jump blues as an artist for 15 years. I guess the problem is that there is a political dance scene that is connected very strongly to ballroom dancing, and it tends to infringe on the market that enjoys Swing, Rockabilly, etc. The point I'm trying to make is that there are a lot of people who enjoy the music and who dance with heart, and their fun is often spoilt by people who are into dancing simply to show off. These are mostly older people who wear glittery sequinned cartoonish versions of so-called "rock'n'roll clothes" and who don't love the music and who don't 'feel' the music. Thus, they don't dance well (for starters their moves are ballroom and not Lindy Hop) and, while they are a minority, they are very vocal about demanding the music be slowed right down for them and insisting that the bands play insppropriate music styles, such as country-rock line dancing music. As a musician, a music fan and a dancer, it's awful to see these people sap the energy and fun from a room that would otherwise be full of folks dancing and having a ball.

These people also sneak water into the venues, and even go so far as to take empty water bottles into the rest rooms and fill them with water from the faucets there. They don't support the bands or the venues and, fortunately, they refuse to pay a cover charge, which means as the venues get tired of propping them up, we see them less and less.

Do you have anything like that happening in your neck of the woods?