White Tie to Prom Take Two

[Carl Thomas Trotter]

(Firstly, the title says 'Take Two' because I understand there is already a discussion on wearing White Tie to prom and I'd love to have the insight of the experienced gentlemen here on the FedoraLounge).

My school's Christmas Dance is in December 2021, 79 days Time (with the Prom following in the months after) and I have spent the past 4 years saving and slowly accumulating a proper White Tie ensemble inspired by the great Fred Astaire himself for this purpose. (It's also useful for a Count Dracula Costume, 1931 Original Of course). I have already acquired a date and she's used to me wearing suits, but if it is out of her comfort zone I do have a Dinner Jacket on standby.

It all started with the waistcoat when I was 13 (which was initially too big for me) then slowly it built up from then as I got a stiff-fronted shirt/detachable collar etc., now 4 years and a few shirt studs later, at 17 years old, I am quite content with the outcome.

I am a man who appreciates blunt criticism so long as it has a constructive flair, here is my ensemble as it 'currently' stands:

The most obvious issue that I, personally, can notice is that the tailcoat doesn't fit as a body coat, it's a bit baggy. The peeking waistcoat is a side-effect of this and should be adjusted once I collect it in a week or two. As such, as we speak/read, the chest is being taken in relatively drastically and the shoulders brought up a (tiny) amount.

Please, provide your open thoughts on the ensemble its self and the idea of wearing White Tie to a prom/dance.

I personally live in Scotland, so it is cold here in December and so I have a DB black overcoat, silk scarf and silk plush Top Hat which I'll be wearing to and from the event (but very briefly).

Gentlemen, I must also warn you that that photo was taken before 6 pm, a fact of which I hang my head in shame towards.

I hope you have all been well during COVID, and am wishing you all well,
-Carl

 

[Peacoat]

My first question would be what is the standard attire at your prom? White tie seems to be a bit much for a high school prom, but things may have changed a bit in the few years since I was in high school. Plus the countries are different.

I would think that black tie would be a better fit. I have both, so a good familiarity with them

The most obvious problem to me is the length of the sleeves of both the shirt and the jacket. Both are too short, especially the jacket. The sleeves should hang at or just below the wrist joint with no more than 1/4" of the shirt sleeve showing below the sleeve of the jacket.

Likewise, no more than 1/4" of the waistcoat should be showing below the jacket in the front.

Your tie needs to be tied with greater precision.

Noted your comments on the fit of the jacket, but that isn't as worrisome for me as the sleeve lengths.

But first you need to sort whether white tie is appropriate for your prom

 

[Bfd70]

I don’t know anything about formal attire but I do know that you’re awesome!

 

[Carl Thomas Trotter]

My first question would be what is the standard attire at your prom? White tie seems to be a bit much for a high school prom, but things may have changed a bit in the few years since I was in high school. Plus the countries are different.

I would think that black tie would be a better fit. I have both, so a good familiarity with them

The most obvious problem to me is the length of the sleeves of both the shirt and the jacket. Both are too short, especially the jacket. The sleeves should hang at or just below the wrist joint with no more than 1/4" of the shirt sleeve showing below the sleeve of the jacket.

Likewise, no more than 1/4" of the waistcoat should be showing below the jacket in the front.

Your tie needs to be tied with greater precision.

Noted your comments on the fit of the jacket, but that isn't as worrisome for me as the sleeve lengths.

But first you need to sort whether white tie is appropriate for your prom

Thank you very much indeed for your reply, your suggestions are completely correct.

The shirt sleeve here is actually being held up with a garter, but the garter was far too high, the shirt is from Darcy Clothing and came in a very large size, so when fully extended the sleeves go down as far as my knuckles. Currently, my gran is correcting this by removing excess fabric, so the shirt sleeve length won't be an issue anymore. The jacket sleeve length, however, I completely agree should be extended. My only concern with this is that the jacket has surgeon cuffs, but when I go for a 2nd fitting next week I'll ask if we can extend the sleeves a bit. (there is definitely enough fabric for a good extension, I'm simply unsure of the complexity required).

I understand that none of the waistcoat should be showing at the sides. Luckily, this is another easy fix as I have been shortening the waistcoat collar to make it sit a tiny bit higher, and once the tailcoat fits more like it should, as in like a body coat, I believe this problem will flatten out and the waistcoat will be completely hidden. This will also hopefully stop the fix of the waistcoat hanging too low below the tailcoat in the middle, thank you for pointing that one out! (I didn't notice it myself!)

Now that the complexities of the fit are discussed, on the topic of the attire of everyone else, although I am clearly breaking the rules by not wearing the stated 'black tie', I was discussing the matter with my friends today and my peers will attend wearing all sorts of attire, from bright red skinny-fit polyester suits with a necktie to a christmas pattened 'tuxedo suit', it was all very... non-traditional.

As such, I've decided that because this event won't be what you'd expect of a event coded 'black tie' (a sea of white shirts, black dinner suits and black bowties), that I won't stand out as much as I otherwise would. I've looked at photos of this dance in previous years and I've only seen one person wearing a decently pulled-off dinner suit (in terms of lapel configuration etc.) amongst a jungle of vibrantly patterned 'menswear'.

ANother reason behind this is that the hotel it is being hosted at is a hotel that Frank Sinatra, Winston Churchill, Fred Astaire, Nat King Cole and others have gone to, so I thought I'd be inspired by one of those gentlemen, in my case Fred Astaire.

I apologise for the ramble, I just thought that I should give you a full structured answer for being so kind as to give me some suggestions,

Thank you very much indeed once again for those suggestions, wishing you well,
-Carl

 

[Tiki Tom]

I think that you look great and that your plan is completely fine. Seventeen is the age where you can have fun wearing whatever spin on formal wear you desire. Decades ago, my prom had people wearing everything from suits to tails with no one taking issue. The usual comment was simply “you look great.” Don’t over think it. You look great and it will be fabulous.

 

[Wolf99]

Firstly, you look great and I am sure you’ll look a lot smarter than most there, even without any adjustments!

The sleeves on the coat do look a little short - if it is possible to have them adjusted I would.

The point at which the waistcoat edge should sit is a less clear cut than the internet sometimes suggests. It is perfectly possible to find illustrations and photos of men with waistcoats that extended below the line of the coat. Some vintage waistcoats were cut to extend sharply and dramatically below the wAistline as it approached the points, others didn’t. It is generally accepted though that the effect is improved by a continuous black line, not broken up by a waistcoat, as it increases the impression of long elegant lines and proportions. You’ll notice that the most stylish of white tie wearers, however, go one better: Fred Astaire’s waistcoat line matches the end of his tail coat exactly, producing a perfect fit. I doubt that’s possible without both being fitted and adjusted to you personally, however.

 

[Carl Thomas Trotter]

Update: Thanks to the amazing people here, I made some alterations and finally got to put it all together (including a recently acquired Silk Plush Top Hat ) in a 31' Bela Lugosi-inspired Dracula costume:

Thoughts?

 

[AbbaDatDeHat]

Update: Thanks to the amazing people here, I made some alterations and finally got to put it all together (including a recently acquired Silk Plush Top Hat ) in a 31' Bela Lugosi-inspired Dracula costume:

Thoughts?

Pencil mustache and a cane and you will be Legend at your HS.
B

 

[Carl Thomas Trotter]

Pencil mustache and a cane and you will be Legend at your HS.
B

In terms of comfort levels, I'm willing to go for the Top Hat but I personally draw the line at that, I'd much rather not have a cane given the fact I'm only 17 and don't think I'm near an age where I can pull off a moustache either!

Thanks for the suggestions and overprediction of my confidence levels though! I take it as a compliment!

 

[Edward]

What part of Scotland are you in? I've passed through Edinburgh with work once or twice and seen a lot of kids off to a formal; the boys were all in full kilt rig. White tie won't stand out as much against that if that's a concern, the Prince Charlie coatee look, even with its black bow, is now widely accepted as equivalent to white tie now that the lace jabot and velvet DB jacket have all but died out (I think the last person I saw wearing that with any regularity was the late Sean Connery).

Outfit looks good; I think you're at the stage of accessories now. A pair of patent black shoes would be a nice touch (I personally never bothered going all-out with white-tie pumps as I'd get less wear out of them; shoes do well enough and double for black tie). With white tie, I like a pocket watch rather than wrist. A good black overcoat is nice in Winter. I have my eye on one of these from Thedarkangel.com for wearing with both black and white tie:

They also do a nice opera cloak, which is more Bela Lugosi:

Cloak would look fab with white tie, though the coat would see more wear-potential otherwise.

When going out in a top hat, I always take with me a travel hat box with a handle - like a small case. Mine's a bit battered, cheap second hand / ex-hire purchase, which is ideal. It's very handy for putting the hat in once you're inside (I lean to the view it keeps it 'safer' when left into a hotel cloakroom with your overcoat). Purely a personal preference, but for me not wearing a hat indoors is "proper", keeping it on is "costume". YMMV, of course; it's all subjective. Where I become costumey is that I have a couple of smokingcap/Fez hybrids that I occasionally adopt as indoor wear at an event:

Worn with black tie here, but also have worn it with white. (Facial scarring is fake, something I like to throw on for certain occasions. On that particular evening, the mere sight of it scared off a guy on the tube who was about to take the mickey out of my outfit, so also has a practical purpose!).

Another accessory I favour with white tie is gloves:

White cotton, easily found very cheaply. Adds a little extra pop that differentiates from black tie.

TBH, if you're off to a dinner and dance occasion I would forgo the cane - it's just one more thing that needs to be put in the cloakroom / looked after all night otherwise, easiest avoided.

With the top hat, the biggest problem you're likely to encounter are eedjits on the street who want to try it on, usually in my experience tiddly, undergraduate-age girls who think any form of hat is fancy dress and that it's just fine to ask to try it on - or even try and grab it to do so without asking. If there's a *lot* of this around and you're on public transport, that's where the hatbox can sometimes be an easy equivalent.

Once or twice, with black and even white tie when going places where I know there will be no secure cloakroom, I've actually replaced the to hat with a black beret. It's a look I rather like, a bit fey, a bit 'old Hollywood'. Not to everyone's taste, but a viable alternative where practicality is a consideration which calls for a hat that can be stowed away in a coat pocket.

 

[ZericaRibica]

First of all, Carl you look gorgeous and congrats on putting on such a detailed ensemble!

I myself have been working on the same project since September and have recently acquired all the items that I need.

I went into this project with a goal to create a modern white tie ensemble but still classic. By modern ensemble I mean a made to measure tailcoat and matching high rise trousers constructed in the same way they made them in the 1930s an 1920s.

My ensamble (and any proper ensemble) should consist of the following:

1. Tailcoat with silk or grosgrain peaked lapels in black or midnight blue with a faux 2 or 3 rows of buttons on the front
2. High rise trousers with that are worn with white suspenders, double silk or grosgrain galon running down the seam of the trousers. Optionally you can opt in for pleated trousers if you like the older look or just want more room for your thighs.
3. Starched Marcella cotton pique waistcoat (either double breasted or single breasted) with removable buttons
4. Marcella cotton pique self-tie bow tie (butterfly, batwing, pointed batwing or single end are acceptable)
5. Starched Bib Marcella cotton pique full dress shirt
6. Starched wing collar with collar studs
7. Silk over the calf sheer evening socks for men
8. Patent leather oxfords or opera pumps

Optional:

1. Boutonniere in either a white carnation, red carnation or blue cornflower look great!
2. Top hat, vintage in this case is best but it should not be collapsible
3. Full evening dress set (waistcoat studs, shirt studs, double sided cufflinks)
4. Cane
5. Evening overcoat with silk face lapels

As far as your look goes I'd really only fix the peeking waistcoat and make a bit of a smaller bow with the tie to compliment your slim physique.


If you have any other questions feel free to ask!

 

[Carl Thomas Trotter]

The Prom/Dance was canceled, I'm afraid. All those years of planning were wasted...

Or were they...

Ended up going to a house party, it was as I suspected and there was no stiff dress code, some of my friends were in full dinner suits, others 3 piece lounge suits, and some people in just a shirt. I left the Top Hat at home as teenage house parties tend to be... messy.

Nobody took offense to my presentation and I think because I took Astaire's attitude of wearing tails like you wear them every day and remain down-to-earth.

Here are some photos! Thanks for the help everyone, it's been great! The Dance might be rescheduled, but knowing COVID it'll probably end up as a refund. Honestly, I own tails and I've never even done the waltz or danced before because so many other events have been canceled, the times we live in!

Here are some photos I took for you fantastic people:

The mad grin on my face before leaving my Dad's house:

It has been a pleasure, gentlemen. To anyone who reads this in the future and wants to wear White Tie to their formal event whilst being under the age of 18, my checklist would be as follows:

-Ensure that the prom dress code enforcement is relaxed so that people are turning up in mixed formalwear anyways (sort of like Black tie optional) and if possible check with the hosts if you can wear White Tie

-Ensure that even though you're wearing this attire, you don't ever under any circumstances brag or use compliments as an excuse to talk about yourself for too long.

-Be at least 15. I started collecting this when I was 13 but didn't wear out it until I was 16, otherwise no matter how perfect the execution is, it'll look like you ran away from a photoshoot or are wearing a costume.

-If possible, get a stiff fronted shirt and tall detachable wing collar (don't go for imperial, I think that's a bit too costumey for a prom), it transforms the entire thing from a costume to a proper formal ensemble.

-Ensure that you obey every tiny little detail from the dress code (see Gentleman's Gazette's White Tie guide for some help with this, or take inspiration from 1930s White Tie illustrations).

-Most importantly, get the fit right! If you're a growing teen then you may fall into the tall and skinny category, as I do. In that case, as with any case, you want to be sure to get the length on everything right! Your tailcoat should be at least long enough to touch the back of your knees and at most can be halfway down your Calves depending on what you're going for. The sleeves should really only show 3/4 inches of cuff at max, something that I didn't do because I couldn't alter my sleeves as they had functioning buttons. Most importantly, however, get the Waistcoat to sit above the fronts of the jacket, I didn't execute this too well either but it's a significant improvement from the waistcoat Trump wore when visiting the Queen! If the waistcoat sits below the jacket front then it ruins the streamlined look of the ensemble and breaks the whole thing. Your shoulders are another critical area and you should ensure that you get your tailcoat to have small armholes for maximum range of movement and ensure that the jacket shoulder touches your real shoulder exactly (there are better guides on this online, so look there).

-Hardest of all will be the cost (in my case). As I said, I've been collecting this since I was 13 and spending essentially all of my money on this. I had to buy and sell a few Silk Plush Top Hats to end up affording the rest! This is an entirely idiotic financial move to make, but if you have the motivation then feel free to go ahead.

-Lastly, get some confidence, pick up your date and have fun!

Thank you, it's been a long journey and I'm glad it's over! This journey is what got me into wearing classically inspired menswear every day (not nearly as dated as this though!) and I can't wait to see if anyone else is going to take a similar approach!

 

[brendond]

You look great Carl the whole white tie rig looks spot on

 

[Harp]

Carl:

I'll second Brendond, and your elegant sartorial eye speaks a maturity I wish I had possessed at seventeen.
Whilst taciturn about self, please however do tell us about future scholastic goals.