White tie breast pocket

[Fletch]

Agreed and yet our attempt at informality has created a worse sense of conformity.

Ain't it the truth. The shoe's just on the other foot.

 

[dhermann1]

More evidence that Fred says yes:

 

[Tomasso]

Another vote for Yes.

 

[Fletch]

Again - from an era when white tie was a style. Was sophisticated.

My point was that today it's lost that connotation. It's too connected with ritual. You could wear it to a black tie event only if you're willing to be seen as flamboyant, or alternatively, if you have some f-u cred, like Russell Crowe at the Oscars in '99.

 

[dhermann1]

Fletch: You should have been at the Christmas Ball in Brooklyn year before last, where Arenella and George Gee played. Quite a motley crew was there, including one slightly lost chap in full morning suit regalia. But there were 4 or 5 of us who showed up in white tie. Yes, of course, we were playing dress-up, but it was fun.

 

[Tiller]

Again - from an era when white tie was a style. Was sophisticated.

My point was that today it's lost that connotation. It's too connected with ritual. You could wear it to a black tie event only if you're willing to be seen as flamboyant, or alternatively, if you have some f-u cred, like Russell Crowe at the Oscars in '99.

So I couldn't wear it simply because I enjoyed it? Nor, could I attempt to set up a white tie event here in the states? I dare say that it maybe difficult to do it in the states, but not impossible, especially with the right friends around. Things are only ritualistic if you allow them to be that way.

 

[Edward]

Usually pro, but not if I'm wearing a buttonhole - no real reason other than, with my slight build, it ends up looking too clustered up there

Depends on the positioning, really.... but I think with a more restrained fold, you could still work it.

Pro, though it should be clear that lack of pocket square is by no means sartorially wrong (simply aesthetically dull).

I don't know that I've ever seen white tie done right (as opposed to "Tuxedo Tails") without one. Of course, I find that a lounge suit looks bare without a square, so. [huh]

Pro!
I have heard referenced a few places that on the Continent one does not wear both a buttoniere and a pocket square. However, I have seen way too many photos of formal events and balls in France and other places from the Golden Era where men sport both to think this was/is really the case. Just my thoughts.

Quite. IMFNSHO, the square is by far more important than the button hole.

If there's a pocket there then it is meant to be used, otherwise, why is it there for? To put pens in? To trap dust? I think not...
.

Bazinga!

Face it fellas - white tie today is no longer a style. It's a uniform, acceptable only in very limited situations where protocol is everything. If there's not a president, a royal, or a Grand Exalted Muckymuck in the room, you're probably showing off.

As such, I would think no hankey would be more in the spirit of things. I know I wouldn't wear one if I played in the symphony, altho I might to a fraternal or diplomatic do.

Au contraire, it is how one accessorises one's evening wear that raises it above mere uniform, and into style.

Again - from an era when white tie was a style. Was sophisticated.

My point was that today it's lost that connotation. It's too connected with ritual. You could wear it to a black tie event only if you're willing to be seen as flamboyant, or alternatively, if you have some f-u cred, like Russell Crowe at the Oscars in '99.

It seems all to often nowadays you could wear pretty much anything to a "black tie" event and get away with it. A thousand curses upon the fiend that invented "creative black tie".

Fletch: You should have been at the Christmas Ball in Brooklyn year before last, where Arenella and George Gee played. Quite a motley crew was there, including one slightly lost chap in full morning suit regalia. But there were 4 or 5 of us who showed up in white tie. Yes, of course, we were playing dress-up, but it was fun.

Whoever let him out of the hire shop with that for an evening event should be hanged. Of course, the sad fact is that these days they probably didn't know any better either. Morning wear deliberately donned for an evening event (as opposed to the wholly acceptable circumstance in which a daytime event carries on into the evening) is as great a sin as that peculiarly American notion that black tie is appropriate for a daytime wedding.

 

[Wolfmanjack]

So I couldn't wear it simply because I enjoyed it? Nor, could I attempt to set up a white tie event here in the states? I dare say that it maybe difficult to do it in the states, but not impossible, especially with the right friends around. Things are only ritualistic if you allow them to be that way.

It's not really that difficult to do in the states. White tie is still de rigueur for at least some of the many débutante balls held throughout the U.S.

N.B.: This beau is sans buttonhole and pocket square, and his waistcoat is visible below his tailcoat. Appalling!

 

[Charlie Huang]

TBH, I wore morning dress to an evening event once but I had a very good excuse: I was in London in a formal meeting earlier in the day and so did not have time nor opportunity or place to change (I'm hardly going to drag a huge suitcase with my evening wear in it all the way from Birmingham just to attend a party for a few hours since I had to leave early to catch the last train anyways as it was a day trip.)

 

[Edward]

It's not really that difficult to do in the states. White tie is still de rigueur for at least some of the many débutante balls held throughout the U.S.

N.B.: This beau is sans buttonhole and pocket square, and his waistcoat is visible below his tailcoat. Appalling!

I'll cut some slack on the waistcoat / tailcoat thing. It is very hard to avid nowadays, as IME waistcoats have gotten longer while tailcoats have stayed the same. A vintage tailcoat is reasonably easy to find (I have three, two 30s, one Fifties, in my wardrobe), however the waistcoats not so. I only once managed to find one in my size, but it was impossible to bleach it back to being white, it always looked yellowed, and in the end it was no good for anthing other than to be sacrificed to a screen-accurate Riff Raff costume. One day I'll have one made in the 'proper' length. The far bigger mistake is the lack of a pocket square: to me this screams 'hire wear, with no eye for detail'.

TBH, I wore morning dress to an evening event once but I had a very good excuse: I was in London in a formal meeting earlier in the day and so did not have time nor opportunity or place to change (I'm hardly going to drag a huge suitcase with my evening wear in it all the way from Birmingham just to attend a party for a few hours since I had to leave early to catch the last train anyways as it was a day trip.)

Which is, of course, entirely acceptable, IMO. I don't see it as too great a stretch in your situation to treat it as equivalent to being at the one event which extended over into the evening.

 

[Dr Kilroy]

Hello, I have got a question regarding white tie, but I do not want to start a new thread. Let it be a general white tie thread.

Here it is: what do you think about a velvet collar for a dress coat? I cannot find any modern illustrations as this is rather an old feature, but this is the best one (second from right):

Pozdrawiam, Dr

 

[Wolfmanjack]

Hello, I have got a question regarding white tie, but I do not want to start a new thread. Let it be a general white tie thread.

Here it is: what do you think about a velvet collar for a dress coat? I cannot find any modern illustrations as this is rather an old feature, but this is the best one (second from right):

Pozdrawiam, Dr

It could be an elegant touch, perhaps. But the glory of a white tie affair is that sea of men dressed identically, down to the very last detail. A velvet collar would strike a discordant tone, I fear.

 

[Charlie Huang]

Already answered this on Ask Andy!

Summary:

Regency era detail
Died out during Victorian
Not seen anymore by Edwardian
Correct to have (subtle enough) but very rare

 

[Noble Savage]

Velvet collars at the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

More here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/C...emy_of_Sciences-Ceremonial_Meeting_2010-03-31

 

[Noble Savage]

I appears that the embroidered velvet collar posted above has to do with the wearer holding a Ph.D. from a Scandinavian university, for example, as explained on the Aalto University Dress Code page:

In addition to the doctoral hat, the Doctors of Science in Technology may wear some special regalia: the women a velvet brooch, and the men an embroidered velvet collar in their tailcoat.

The specially embroidered velvet collar worn by Doctors of Science in Technology embroidered on each end in black silk. Since the collar is permanently attached to the tailcoat, a hired or borrowed tailcoat cannot be used.

http://promootio2012.aalto.fi/en/about/dresscode/insignierna_for_teknologie_doktorer/