White Tie - Bib bosom

[Happy Stroller]

Some bibs on shirts specially for White Tie occassions have a bottom tag with a button hole to attach to a button behind the waistband of the trousers. The purpose of buttoning the bib to the trousers is to prevent a stiff bib from bellowing out (presumably the wearer has a well-endowed abdomen resulting in a bib panel that inclines outwards) when the wearer sits down.

Usually such bib panels are made from pique cotton material to distinguish them from the rest of the dress shirt, which is usually made from broadcloth cotton.

Why is the bib material pique cotton? In what way is pique cotton superior to making the bib panel much stiffer than the rest of the shirt? BTW, how does one pronounce the word 'pique'? What about 'risque'?

One of my friends says that a stiff bib panel requires a built-in inner reinforcement panel, made from similar material to that which is inside a cummerbund. She does not know what that stiffening material is called. Is she correct?

But if the stiffness comes from that inner material, then starching is not necessary, so how would one then be able to make the bib bosom look shinier than the rest of the shirt?

Another friend claims that the bib panel is separable from the shirt and is attached to the shirt with the help of studs and that trouser tag button. Is he correct?

 

[shindeco]

Why is the bib material pique cotton? In what way is pique cotton superior to making the bib panel much stiffer than the rest of the shirt? BTW, how does one pronounce the word 'pique'? What about 'risque'?

Pique was only one of the materials used. It was used because it's patterned and gives a bit of visual interest. It's also heavier than a lot of the regular shirtings and holds the starch better. It's pronounced [pee-kay] with the stress on the final syllable (risque is pronounced [riss-kay]; same stress but a different vowel in the first syllable) Dress shirts were also made with unpatterned cotton or linen bosoms.

One of my friends says that a stiff bib panel requires a built-in inner reinforcement panel, made from similar material to that which is inside a cummerbund. She does not know what that stiffening material is called. Is she correct?

Stiff front bosoms are usually interfaced, but on vintage shirts, it's usually just another layer of the same fabric you see on the shirt front. (It's called interfacing)

But if the stiffness comes from that inner material, then starching is not necessary, so how would one then be able to make the bib bosom look shinier than the rest of the shirt?

Starching is still necessary because interfacing gives weight but not stiffness and a stiff front shirt needs to be, well...stiff. The starch gives it a texture not unlike cardboard. The shine was often acheived by adding borax to the cold water starch mixture but the real secret was in the iron. There were special "polishing irons" that had a rounded bottom. The shirt front (and collar and cuffs) were ironed on an unpadded hardwood board with this heavy, slightly rounded iron to get a high gloss finish.

Another friend claims that the bib panel is separable from the shirt and is attached to the shirt with the help of studs and that trouser tag button. Is he correct?

You could (and still can) buy detachable shirt fronts. They were much easier to launder and the shirt underneath was of less concern (viz. it didn't have to be white...or clean). In fact, this company

http://amazondrygoodscollarsandcuffs.com/mayfair.html

sells disposable shirtfronts and collars made on the original equipment. The equipment has been producing this stuff since 1862 and has never closed down! (It's changed hands a couple of times but the the products have never been off the market)

 

[Happy Stroller]

Thanks, ShinDeco, for that wonderful Amazon DryGoods lead.

Perhaps, I was putting the cart before the horse by assuming that the bib panel needs to be stiff. I've just come across a particular pique fabric which comes with a shiny look. It is not 100% cotton, and I suspect it's of Japanese origin. The seller claims it's especially suitable as material for a groom's (entire) shirt. Does that mean that a bib made with this material need be neither stiff nor starched?

 

[shindeco]

Traditionally, the bib is starched; no matter what the fabric. I usually starch my pique front shirts but I have worn them unstarched. (Don't really care for the look it gives). The modern tendency is away from starch of any sort. The stiffness gives a certain "unmovable" quality to the shirt front that was characteristic of vintage formal wear. Modern day dressers find the stiffness uncomfortable so ... no starch. This, however, means that your shirt front will shift as you move and wrinkle up a bit (that's the part I don't like).

It's your call. If you're looking for comfort but like the shine, go with this fabric. If you're a total vintage fanatic or want that impeccable, pristine field of white, you can use the same fabric; just starch the heck out of it. If you suspect it's not all natural fibres, remember that polyester doesn't breathe and the shirt will be much hotter.

 

[Happy Stroller]

I wonder if Borax is the ingredient that makes the starch look bluish.

What is a method of starching the pique bib panel/s, collars and/or pique cuffs, without starching the rest of the shirt?

A 3-stud/button V-cut white pique cotton vest (a.k.a., waistcoat) is worn as part of a White Tie dress. Where should the bottom of the pique bib bosom end? Should it be below the waistband of the formal dress trousers? Or, can it end above the waistband, showing some of the rest of the shirt below it, unless the vest is closed? Or, should the bib bosom end above the bottom of the V formed by the vest when the vest is closed, so that some of the rest of the shirt below the bib will show regardless of whether the vest is closed or not?

 

[shindeco]

In commercial laundry products, the blue tinge is from "blueing". It's a light blue dye that gives yellowed whites the illusion of being whiter.

Some stuff here from another thread on starching collars

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/showthread.php?t=11696

Instructions for starching a shirt front (c. 1912):

Gather the back of the neck-band carefully in the hand and dip it in the starch, wring out and rub between the hands; then place the two sides of the front evenly together, gather it up fan-shape in the hand and twist the material immediately above the thick folds of linen and, and dip it into the starch, wring carefully out, holding the hands downwards while twisting to prevent the starch passing into the sides of the shirt. Rub the starch well into the linen, and repeat the process twice.

 

[shindeco]

A 3-stud/button V-cut white pique cotton vest (a.k.a., waistcoat) is worn as part of a White Tie dress. Where should the bottom of the pique bib bosom end? Should it be below the waistband of the formal dress trousers? Or, can it end above the waistband, showing some of the rest of the shirt below it, unless the vest is closed? Or, should the bib bosom end above the bottom of the V formed by the vest when the vest is closed, so that some of the rest of the shirt below the bib will show regardless of whether the vest is closed or not?

When your waistcoat is done up, the only part of the shirt you should see is the bosom. There should be no bib edge visible. If you have custom made trousers and a custom made shirt, the bosom should end at the the waistband of the trousers. As you noted earlier, the tab at the bottom of some shirt fronts should fasten to the top trouser button. (I have an evening waistcoat that has an elasticized button hole for just the same purpose so neither shirt nor waistcoat can ride up if everything's fastened!)

 

[Happy Stroller]

Traditionally, the bib is starched; no matter what the fabric. I usually starch my pique front shirts but I have worn them unstarched. (Don't really care for the look it gives). The modern tendency is away from starch of any sort. The stiffness gives a certain "unmovable" quality to the shirt front that was characteristic of vintage formal wear. Modern day dressers find the stiffness uncomfortable so ... no starch. This, however, means that your shirt front will shift as you move and wrinkle up a bit (that's the part I don't like).

It's your call. If you're looking for comfort but like the shine, go with this fabric. If you're a total vintage fanatic or want that impeccable, pristine field of white, you can use the same fabric; just starch the heck out of it. If you suspect it's not all natural fibres, remember that polyester doesn't breathe and the shirt will be much hotter.

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Well, don't forget between the body and the pique bib lies the 100% breathable cotton shirt itself; so it may not be that hot.

According to my friend, the interfacing can be made of material as stiff as you need. As I've mentioned, the new pique material I found is much more shinier than normal pique cotton, almost as shiny as polished silver. Combining both, you can get an extremely eye-catching bright, shiny and stiff bib bosom.

 

[Topper]

Pique is also called "Marcella"

The bib can be separate or attached to the shirt, detached bibs were favourable for a period of time, and also allowed people to either reuse the item with a different shirt, but mainly easier to clean it separately from washing the shirt, as different process in cleaning and re-startching.

The bib bottom should be covered by a marcella waistcoat, as mentioned above.

A cumberbund should not be worn with wasitcoat or braces.

The wasitcoat should pertrude approx 1 inch below the cut of the tail coat front.

Pip-Pip
Doug
p.s. have a big section on old dresscode on my site if you want further info.

 

[Happy Stroller]

Pique is also called "Marcella"
:
A cumberbund should not be worn with wasitcoat or braces.

The wasitcoat should pertrude approx 1 inch below the cut of the tail coat front.

Pip-Pip
Doug
p.s. have a big section on old dresscode on my site if you want further info.

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Hi, Doug, thanks for introducing your website.
Unfortunately my browser doesn't seem to work well at your website. For example, the Ascot Top Hat page ends with the following line "Finding a very good condition top hat is a difficult task. In the last 50 years people's head sizes have slowly".

Don't know if you are really referring to Indian cumberbands, I thought braces can be used with cummerbunds.

And I thought it's faux pas for waistcoats to protrude below the cut of the tailcoat's front.

 

[Topper]

Hi

Cummerbund should be wraped around waist, they are to cover the 'wasitband' - traditionally... they wrapped all aroundand hence would support the trousers also... Though most modern ones may not be designed so well or used too loosly hence the need for braces additionally - So we are both correct lol

A wasitcoat cannot support the trousers, but is also used to cover the 'wasitband'. Braces can be worn with a wasitcot - but the Cummerbund would look funny with a wasitcoat as hidden.

I was taught that about 1 inch 'max' below the front cut of a evening tail coat - faux pas will depends on the era and fashion . As mamimum rule allows it to be both <I>above and below</I> the cut of the coat... but not too much

Pip-pip
Doug
If you can please can you PM me your borwser type and setting , - will check with the deisgn.- Thanks for info.

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Hi, Doug, thanks for introducing your website.
Unfortunately my browser doesn't seem to work well at your website. For example, the Ascot Top Hat page ends with the following line "Finding a very good condition top hat is a difficult task. In the last 50 years people's head sizes have slowly".

Don't know if you are really referring to Indian cumberbands, I thought braces can be used with cummerbunds.

And I thought it's faux pas for waistcoats to protrude below the cut of the tailcoat's front.

 

[geo]

With what shirt would one wear a bib bosom? Would it be with a plain white neckband shirt, like the one amazon dry goods and collars and cuffs have? They also have single cuffs; how does one wear these?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I was taught that about 1 inch 'max' [of the white waistcoat should appear] below the front cut of a evening tail coat - faux pas will depends on the era and fashion .

I'm glad you said that. You're absolutely right about faux pas and era. Fact is that before the 1940s, the bottom line of the white waistcoat was "in line" with the bottom front of the tailcoat. From the '40s (and especially the '50s) onward, waistcoats began to peep out from below the tailcoat front.

To me, at least, a suit of tails looks much better when the waistcoat and the tailcoat front are "in line" with each other.

.

 

[geo]

Well, how does one wear a bib bosom? With what shirt, and how is it attached?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

Well, how does one wear a bib bosom? With what shirt, and how is it attached?

Bib bosoms are almost always part of the shirt itself; they aren't "attachable".


However, one can go the "economy" route and buy a detachable stiff paper bib bosom. It attaches at the collarband, via the front collar button. (Of course, this only works with detachable-collar shirts.) The bottom part of the bib bosom is tucked into the front of the evening waistcoat.


Long ago, the detachable bib would have a bottom tab that one would attach to a button on the inside front waistband of one's trousers. However, today's paper bibs don't have this tab. Some very old evening shirts (and some "cowboy" repros) do have the tab on the bottom of the shirt's permanent bib front. You can see the tab in the photo below:

 

[Happy Stroller]

That's interesting, Marc. I wonder what happens to the placket in the front of the shirt. Won't the attachable bib hide most of it? And the shirt studes might be covered, too.

And how are attachable cuffs attached to a shirt without cuffs? Would these cuffs need two or more sets of cuff studs, too?

 

[Marc Chevalier]

I wonder what happens to the placket in the front of the shirt. Won't the attachable bib hide most of it? And the shirt studes might be covered, too.

The attachable bib would hide most of the regular shirt's placket, but that was the point: to hide the fact that you were wearing a daytime business shirt in the evening. Attachable bibs were sold to men who couldn't afford an evening dress shirt, or who found it more convenient to launder the bib alone, rather than the whole shirt. (Musicians and waiters often used attachable bibs.)


The attachable bibs had buttonholes to which you could directly attach your shirt studs. In other words, the studs were in view.

And how are attachable cuffs attached to a shirt without cuffs? Would these cuffs need two or more sets of cuff studs, too?

They were attached by metal pieces that resembled levered clips. I believe that only one attachment was used per cuff. (They must have hung pretty loosely on the shirt sleeve.)


.

 

[Happy Stroller]

I'm glad you said that. You're absolutely right about faux pas and era. Fact is that before the 1940s, the bottom line of the white waistcoat was "in line" with the bottom front of the tailcoat. From the '40s (and especially the '50s) onward, waistcoats began to peep out from below the tailcoat front.

To me, at least, a suit of tails looks much better when the waistcoat and the tailcoat front are "in line" with each other.

.

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No offense meant to anyone, I just have a feeling it is still better for the white waistcoat bottom to be higher than the bottom of the tailcoat front. Firstly, the sight of a white waistcoat peeping out below the bottom of the tailcoat may give an impression the wearer is at the half dressed stage as in his dressing room. Secondly, were the wearer to lift up his right arm when he is dancing with a lady, an appropriate margin of allowance provided by the bottom of the tailcoat front being lower than the waistcoat bottom should prevent the waistcoat from peeping out.