Which religious group?

[surely]

right on, man

 

[moustache]

I can certainly say it has been an interesting ride on this topic.

JD

 

[carter]

Diamondback, Surely, Viola, and most others;

My cautionary posts are not directed toward any of you directly. Please pardon me if they were taken as such.

They were however, intended, for those who may inadvertently exceed the perceived limits of the Fedora Lounge in the areas pointed out, A. being judgmental and B. being evangelical (perhaps better stated as Proselytizing. Which is defined as, to convert or attempt to convert. A Proselyte is defined as, a person who has changed from one opinion, religious belief, sect, or the like to another.

My sole interest is in the continuation of this thread within the limits expected of us all. And, that we remain aware at all times of the sensitivity of others in this arena.

Originally posted by Moustache
I can certainly say it has been an interesting ride on this topic.

How very true, Sir. I sincerely hope we have provided the discussion you hoped for.

 

[deanglen]

What does that latin quote mean deanglen? I get something like silence and moral strength go together like a . . .

My signature translated:

"In quietness and in trust shall be your strength"
Is 30:15c RSV

I got it from Lucas Cranach's potrait of Martin Luther that I was using as an avatar for a while. Luther is my personal hero.
http://www.luthertour.com/luther.html

dean

 

[Dr Doran]

"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

--From Hamlet (I, v, 166-167)

Not that I am arguing that you are using it in the following way, but the only problem with that line is when it gets overextended to say something like "we cannot know, we may as well admit we will always be ignorant and stop trying to know." That is anti-humanist and the things that I have always respected about religion are the humanist elements, such as the belief that each person is noble and possesses dignity and carries a spark of the "divine" (an idea which of course existed in Stoicism centuries before Christianity began). A benevolent god should be assumed to give Reason to humans in order that they may try to understand the physical principles of the world to improve their lives, among other things.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Well...I gotta plead guilty about probably evangelizing...and proselytizing...but it's so "tempting" to post details of my beliefs...while others post their ideas of no God... no proof...and what ever else they may prefer. Some hoping to be kind enough to find favor allowing them to be good enough to earn a place in that type of heaven. What is being preached is what seems to matter. Anything that has a tendancy to lean toward any kind of judging...or possibly suggesting guilt being delt with...seems to cause the offense. Nothing new..it's been that way for a couple thousand years,at least. Anyone can take offense. Even with just mentioning a name...like Martin Luther...Pope Benedict...Mohammad..Budda... Madaline Ohair..or Jesus.
Instead of a mindset that someone seems to be judging me...or becoming offended...wouldn't it be interesting...along with this poll to have Baptists...Lutherans....Buddists...Church of Latterday Saints...Athiests...Methodists...or just plain old other "christians"...agnostics,etc....have the freedom to post a little bit of how they believe...without debate or fear of resentment. Among ladies and gentleman of the FL this should be possible....shouldn't it?...and informative.
If not...wouldn't you really feel that it is such a shame.......?
HD

 

[Foofoogal]

Truly to what HD said.
Since this is a private somewhat part of the FL I was enjoying this thread immensely.
I kind of find it also cute or silly or whatever that adult conversation is seen as evangelizing.
My opinion did as I stated take a turn toward seriousness in regard to the mention of the tragedy.(that thread has elements of judgmental leanings, should it be shut down as well?)
I especially enjoy Doran and Bebops take on things.
Believe me when I say Atheist and Agnostics don't offend me or scare me as much as lukewarm Christians.
They are the ones according to my beliefs who will be vomited. lol

Like Rooster it must be locality. I haven't actually run across honest to goodness atheist before. Kind of like finding people from another country. Fascinating. I don't want to offend though as I enjoy the lounge. Intelligent conversation at its best.

 

[deanglen]

Not that I am arguing that you are using it in the following way, but the only problem with that line is when it gets overextended to say something like "we cannot know, we may as well admit we will always be ignorant and stop trying to know." That is anti-humanist and the things that I have always respected about religion are the humanist elements, such as the belief that each person is noble and possesses dignity and carries a spark of the "divine" (an idea which of course existed in Stoicism centuries before Christianity began). A benevolent god should be assumed to give Reason to humans in order that they may try to understand the physical principles of the world to improve their lives, among other things.

Hamlet apparently meant that Horatio's view of reality needed to be enhanced. I was curious what type of responses would be forthcoming. Very enlightening.

dean

 

[Foofoogal]

a little bit of how they believe...without debate or fear of resentment

I haven't even come close to how I really believe. One would have to have your seatbelt on. lol

I would love this though. I have found in denominations though even that it varies so greatly like people. It is so wrong to assume one Baptist church say is like another one. Depends on who is preaching or area or alot.
I have always thought of churches like restaurants.
You know how some love Mexican, Italian or etc.
Then how one person will go to a restaurant and rave about it and then you go and yuck. They must of been kidding or you went on the wrong night.
When I was on vacation last week I wanted Chicken Marsala.
Went to a supposedly hot place where you had to have a reservation. They brought me spaghetti in a seperate bowl with I think either tomato sauce or Ragu. A chicken breast which was tender in a watered down gravy with lots of mushrooms. Huh? [huh] Didn't really know what to do properly with it as I was used to getting a thick yummy gravy with all of it together from my local fav place cooked by real Italians. lol
I may seem status quo but you have no idea how much I am not.
Cookie cutter people bore me to tears. That is why I work with street people and such. I have met some amazing people this way.

 

[Samsa]

I have always thought of churches like restaurants.

This view has always interested me. Churches deal in (or so they all say) truth. Which means that for the Christian, one denomination is right, and the others are, by varying degrees, wrong. Two preachers look at a certain passage in the Bible two different ways - one is necessarily wrong. For those who attend Protestant services, I would be curious to hear your view on this phenomenon of fractions. How does one go about deciding what is right, and what is wrong, when so many individual churches claim to be in the right?

 

[HoosierDaddy]

Hmmm...well could be that they are all wrong!!....or all partually wrong....or mostly right....or partly right. I could tell you that the "word" claimed divinely inspired is what is "right"...and unchanged since the beginning...but then the arguement is...there are many interpetations. First of all...one must read it to see what is in it. Not just parts....but the whole story. From the Gospels to Revelation. Simply to keep things in perspective..like any book. Then study the long old testament predicting things to come that completes the whole picture. What you may come away with is..the greatest story ever told....and a first impression of what just might be a simple plan for your benefit and a surprising realization that God does know how you feel...and does love you. Or...on the flip side...this just couldn't be true.
A search for further instruction can be the real dilemma. Doctrine...tradition...etc. of many churches may get in the way. Especially if you seek perfectly holy church people....and a church without fault. When people get their hands on something..even if it's meant to be simple...there's a tendacy to make it much more complicated. Perhaps this is for a reason. The truth..divinely guided and inspired..to be written down as a base for the truth...but,then put in the hands of "free willers" to complicate...so we could always be reminded to keep our eyes where we know the truth always is....and who is really holy.......

 

[Samsa]

The truth..divinely guided and inspired..to be written down as a base for the truth...but,then put in the hands of "free willers" to complicate...so we could always be reminded to keep our eyes where we know the truth always is....and who is really holy.......

This, of course, raises another question (this one rhetorical): wasn't there Truth, and a Church, before there was a list (canon) of scripture? After all, the Bible that Protestants use wasn't really codified until Martin Luther.

 

[Pink Dahlia]

Bokononism

 

[Foofoogal]

Bokononism

That was not very nice. IMHO.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

This, of course, raises another question (this one rhetorical): wasn't there Truth, and a Church, before there was a list (canon) of scripture? After all, the Bible that Protestants use wasn't really codified until Martin Luther.

Absolutely. What was eventually written down were the writings resulting from those beginnings and incorporated later. Here's where the controversary can come in. Some say that that first church changed..or fell away from original teachings. Also..some claim historically a few things happened to the bible scriptures along the way for political and other reasons. Some Protestant churches claim to,have then,went back and translated original scripture from the Greek...and reclaimed true teachings of the first church and holy scripture. The first scriptures incorporated into a bible were claimed to be divinely inspired. Maybe the question should be...does this mean that all since then are? My answer would be no. There can be major differences. I favor the Bible of Greek translation that doesn't seem to be added to...or complicated with emphasis on doctrines or earning my way. In my fathers house is many mansions. That's what I may earn...but the simple message of how to get there should be the first concern,IMO. If God,indeed,inspired a true scripture for all...it would seem that he wouldn't allow for it to become lost. I base my criteria on the reasons listed above....along with others.
Keep in mind..I offer my conclusions as a layman...blue collar believer. Certainly not a theologian...or church history scholar. I am waiting for a pastor to speak up......

 

[Samsa]

Absolutely. What was eventually written down were the writings resulting from those beginnings and incorporated later. Here's where the controversary can come in. Some say that that first church changed..or fell away from original teachings. Also..some claim historically a few things happened to the bible scriptures along the way for political and other reasons. Some Protestant churches claim to,have then,went back and translated original scripture from the Greek...and reclaimed true teachings of the first church and holy scripture. The first scriptures incorporated into a bible were claimed to be divinely inspired. Maybe the question should be...does this mean that all since then are? My answer would be no. There can be major differences. I favor the Bible of Greek translation that doesn't seem to be added to...or complicated with emphasis on doctrines or earning my way. In my fathers house is many mansions. That's what I may earn...but the simple message of how to get there should be the first concern,IMO. If God,indeed,inspired a true scripture for all...it would seem that he wouldn't allow for it to become lost. I base my criteria on the reasons listed above....along with others.
Keep in mind..I offer my conclusions as a layman...blue collar believer. Certainly not a theologian...or church history scholar. I am waiting for a pastor to speak up......

Thanks, that was an informative post. I guess my question, at its essence, was: what exactly is the Protestant conception of "church"? I've only really studied Catholic theology, but am very curious about Protestant ecclesiology.

 

[John in Covina]

Hamlet apparently meant that Horatio's view of reality needed to be enhanced. I was curious what type of responses would be forthcoming. Very enlightening.

dean

*******

It's the discredit the statement move.

 

[Foofoogal]

I don't know all about history but my history and what I have experienced and seen.
To me it is simple. A son named Jesus came down because a God loved us. So whoever honors this son and glorifies this son then the Holy Ghost will come and abide with them. This is the main job if you may of the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost is the essence or the love of the Father for the Son.
This will bring truth to the seeker.
This explains why churches are different. Some have so shut out the Son the Holy Ghost doesn't or isn't allowed to come. Thus degrees of truth in different churches.
If the Bibles states Jesus alone is The Way, The Truth and The Life it is pretty simple. He was even called The Prince of Life.

Now which earthly father wouldn't feel the same thing and want or even demand one honor their son.

 

[Diamondback]

Now which earthly father wouldn't feel the same thing and want or even demand one honor their son.

Mine, but that's not relevant to this discussion.

 

[Foofoogal]

Sorry Diamondback. That is another topic indeed.

I was speaking of Jesus giving His life.

These are Jesus words in John 15:26
"But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of Truth which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:"

Truth is not a philosophy. It is a person.