Which religious group?

[matei]

I'm surprised that the Eastern Orthodox church isn't on the list. There are quite a lot of us you know! [huh]

 

[Elaina]

Or Greek Orthodox.

 

[scotrace]

Well.

"I wouldn't believe in anything anymore if it weren't for my Lucky Astrology Mood Watch." - Steve Martin












.

 

[moustache]

I'm surprised that the Eastern Orthodox church isn't on the list. There are quite a lot of us you know! [huh]

Seems to make everyone happy,there should be an option for 3000 different religious beliefs.But then again there are more than that worldwide.
Have to draw the line somewhere.

JD

 

[Elaina]

Yeah, but you need "none of the above". I follow Elainaism.

 

[Viola]

I'm surprised that the Eastern Orthodox church isn't on the list. There are quite a lot of us you know! [huh]

Well, from an outsider perspective, more than half the choices are "different kinds of Christian" already, while no other religion got denomination breakdowns and two of the most populous religions in the world have to share a slot.

Also, all y'all look alike to me.

-Viola

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

To me, God, leprechauns, and unicorns all belong in the same FABULOUS boat!

As for atheism and agnosticism, I am of the camp that an atheist is one who lacks a belief in God. That is me; I lack said belief. There are other atheists who believe that God does not exist.

Then there are the agnostics, who believe that the existence of God can't be proven. There can be "atheistic agnostics" and "theistic agnostics." I suppose there could be an "I don't care agnostic" too. Being agnostic doesn't necessarily mean you aren't religious, it can mean you believe but don't think God's existence can be proven.

Or course what I've said are all points of contention among the religious and non-religious alike. [huh]

 

[K.D. Lightner]

I, for one, was uncomfortable having to lump agnosticism and atheism together. I am agnostic, sometimes I have flirted with religions, i.e., catholicism, buddhism, Wiccan paganism, but....

All my life, I have had a lack of faith -- when I was three, and my mother told me there was a santa claus, I gave her a look as if she were full of it.. "You just did not believe me," she said, recalling that moment.

It got me in trouble in grade school -- folks don't like it when a 6-year-old tells another 6-year-old there is no santa claus.

Years later, I realized I also did not quite believe in a god, at least the god I found in various religions I studied. So, I studied religions, trying to find something I could believe.

When I finally studied astronomy and the origins of the life, I came back to the idea that the universe was so strangely well-ordered, it could only have been created by something or someone. Which, of course, led me to the question, well, then who created god?

From what I have seen of atheists, most truely believe there is no god. That, to me, takes as much faith as those who profess to believe in a god.

I don't have that kind of faith.

karol

 

[Pilgrim]

Many years ago when I first read Robert Heinlein's classic novel Stranger In A Strange Land, I was struck by a comment from his character Jubal Harshaw. It was something to the effect of: "When the big bell sounds, we may find out that Mumbo Jumbo, the God of the Congo, was actually the big boss all along."

Since I haven't read the text in years, I may have slightly mis-quoted, but the sense is clear. There are NO guarantees - just personal faith in the version of Truth that people select.

(Harshaw went on to say that he found the Catholic ceremony pleasant and dignified, so it was the one in which he participated.)

Incidentally, if you haven't read the book and want to read a great story with an intellectually stimulating examination of what religion does and how it works, I can't recommend Stranger too strongly. It's one of the great classics of science fiction.

 

[jamespowers]

So is an agnostic an atheist who is hedging their bets?

Regards,

J

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Many years ago when I first read Robert Heinlein's classic novel Stranger In A Strange Land, I was struck by a comment from his character Jubal Harshaw. It was something to the effect of: "When the big bell sounds, we may find out that Mumbo Jumbo, the God of the Congo, was actually the big boss all along."

Since I haven't read the text in years, I may have slightly mis-quoted, but the sense is clear. There are NO guarantees - just personal faith in the version of Truth that people select.

(Harshaw went on to say that he found the Catholic ceremony pleasant and dignified, so it was the one in which he participated.)

Incidentally, if you haven't read the book and want to read a great story with an intellectually stimulating examination of what religion does and how it works, I can't recommend Stranger too strongly. It's one of the great classics of science fiction.

I heard great things about this book, then read it. But when I first read it I was in my 20s. If you re-read it, you might notice all the hippie commune crap. It's really not that great of a book in my opinion; by any chance did you first read it at a young, impressionable age? That's what I figure happened when people say they love the book.

And I really like Sci Fi books!

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

So is an agnostic an atheist who is hedging their bets?

Regards,

J

Nooooooooo....agnosticism has to do with knowledge! Whether you can or can't know. Theism has to do with belief. You can believe in god but still be an agnostic.

 

[jamespowers]

Nooooooooo....agnosticism has to do with knowledge! Whether you can or can't know. Theism has to do with belief. You can believe in god but still be an agnostic.

Still sounds like hedging to me. In logic, you cannot debate faith or God because They are absolutes. Either you believe or you don't---no matter what you know or not. [huh]

Regards,

J

 

[Miss_Bella_Hell]

Still sounds like hedging to me. In logic, you cannot debate faith or God because They are absolutes. Either you believe or you don't---no matter what you know or not. [huh]

Regards,

J

Well, yeah. You can have faith and be a believer. You can also believe you can't know if God exists. So a person who is a devout Catholic can say "I believe in God, but I also don't think there's a way to prove he exists by his very nature" or some such.

 

[Samsa]

So a person who is a devout Catholic can say "I believe in God, but I also don't think there's a way to prove he exists by his very nature" or some such.

Actually, a devout Catholic who said that would be committing heresy. It's Catholic doctrine that God's existence can be proven through unaided human reason.

 

[jamespowers]

Well, yeah. You can have faith and be a believer. You can also believe you can't know if God exists. So a person who is a devout Catholic can say "I believe in God, but I also don't think there's a way to prove he exists by his very nature" or some such.

Whoa. This is getting to be too convoluted. My head hurts trying to get around that one. If you were, say a Catholic, and believe you can't know if God exists then you are in the wrong place.
If you don't think you can prove He exists then there is where faith comes in.

Regards,

J

 

[JazzBaby]

To me, an ex-Conservative Catholic, and the product of many Catholic convent schools, it's not up to non-believers to prove that God doesn't exist, but rather up to believers to prove that he does.

 

[jamespowers]

Actually, a devout Catholic who said that would be committing heresy. It's Catholic doctrine that God's existence can be proven through unaided human reason.

Ding Ding! Give that man a Doctrine cigar. :eusa_clap

Regards,

J

 

[Samsa]

Ding Ding! Give that man a Doctrine cigar. :eusa_clap

Regards,

J

Good to know my B.A. in Catholic Theology can be put to use.

 

[Benny Holiday]

I'm with Lincoln and Einstein:

"Originally Posted by Einstein
A man's ethical behaviour should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Just to clarify, true Christianity is not about being punished if you do wrong; it's about a Father whose children have turned away from Him with disastrous results, and He wants to help them and restore the relationship with Him that they've broken. Think of it like this:

You have several children you love dearly, the oldest being ten years the senior of his siblings. As he matures, rather than appreciate the love and good things you've bestowed upon him - a happy childhood, a happy home, warmth and affection and support - he begins to become proud of his own intelligence and how clever he has become from the education you've provided for him. He begins to think he knows better than you, he doesn't want to live happily under your roof and by your rules of sharing, support and helping one another. He believes you're holding him back from his full potential. Why should he help out at home? He's smart enough, he argues, to live by his own principles. He's young, good-looking, and bright; why should he do things for others? He starts to think others should look up to him.

He starts to teach your younger children his new philosophies, trying to sow the seed of his rebellion in them, too. You discover that he's taken to shoplifting and petty burglary, as he feels he deserves more than he has, and you warn him to stop thinking selfishly and to turn away from the path he has taken in life, for as yet he can't see where his ideas are leading him. Ignoring you, he stubbornly persists in spreading his dissension, until the younger children all want their own way, and fight constantly, not wanting to share their toys or help one another. They scream and yell, becoming more and more disobedient and nasty even to you, using hateful words, spitting and cursing. Your home of peace and love is in turmoil, and heartbroken, you have to tell your son to leave. His heart set against you, he goes away and refuses to talk to you.

When your younger children become teenagers, your older son lurks around their high school and begins meeting them after classes. You've already told them that you can't stop them seeing him or talking to him - they are young adults and have freedom of choice - but you ask that they keep away from him for their own sakes. They do not listen, and he introduces them to the wonders of the world he has waiting for them - a world of selfish pleasures, drug-taking, nightclubbing, petty crime, pornography and debasement. They pay the price for the short-lived pleasures of drugs and alcohol, ending up owing money to drug dealers and having to resort to committing worse and worse crimes to pay for their habits. They fight against each other and split up, losing the only support they've left themselves.

You've already lost one son, who only comes around to accuse them of being as bad as he is. You warned him long before that a life of crime would bring him only misery and punishment; now he says that if he deserves jail, so do your younger offspring, even though they were too young to understand what he was leading them into.

You go looking for your childen, but they hide, too shamed for you to see what they've become, how low they've sunk. You find them in a drug den off an alleyway, and implore them to come home. Two turn away from you, too addicted to their habits to leave, but one does come home for a while, and you welcome her back into a loving and caring environment, until her habit, too, has her returning more and more to the streets and back to committing criminal acts.

One awful evening, on yet another excursion to look for your children, you hear that they are so indebted to a malevolent and perverted drug lord that he plans to have them killed. You find where this debauched character holds court in the local ghetto and ask him what payment he'd accept in place of their lives - your house, your car, all you own. Seeing that you're a virtuous person, and being utterly degenerate, he says, "Your life for theirs. I want to watch you die."

And without hesitation, you say yes. To save them, you'll pay their debt to him in full with your own life.

How do your children react to your sacrifice of love? They've raped and been raped, hated and been hated, bashed and been bashed, committed just about every despicable act you can think of; but they're your children, the babies you brought into the world and whom you adore with all your heart and all your strength. You've chased after them time and time again, and when they wouldn't listen you sent messengers to them, imploring them to come home and live in happiness again, all their past wrongs forgiven and forgotten. Now you are going to die that they might live, to give them a chance to return to the full, wonderful life that could have been theirs, that could be theirs again. All the love you've showered upon them from birth hasn't been enough so far to turn them back to a fulfilling life; hopefully your death for them will show them what love and selfishness is really all about, a lesson that'll go to their hearts and change their lives.

"Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." - Romans 5:7-8