when you dress in Vintage do you also think & act, talk like they did from the era?

[JohnnyLoco]

I was being sarcastic when I mentioned Elizabeth Dilling, one of the most notorious and vicious anti-Semites and home-grown Fascists of the thirties, but come to find out that not long ago a certain prominent cable-TV pundit enthusiastically endorsed her as an "American Patriot." There is truly nothing new under the sun.

I'm sorry, I was just reminded of that Twilight Zone episode with the late Dennis Hopper, where Rod Serling theorized that the next Hitler could be right down the street and most people wouldn't even realize it, or at best there are many "cheap" versions of Hitler--possibly a much more scary proposition. One of the best episodes ever.

 

[sheeplady]

Wow. I'm pretty sure that's not the definition of 'democracy.' It's not even the definition of communism/Marxism. American democracy is founded first and foremost on the concept of Liberalism, classically enunciated by John Locke: liberty or freedom of the individual is the most important political value. Second, the theory of the autonomy of individual moral responsibility provides a basis for human rights and serves to protect people from government interference in moral concerns. Third, Cartesian skepticism, especially over what is objectively valuable, prevents government from deciding what people should believe is ethically valuable or is religiously correct (communism is usually fundamentally atheistic). Finally, political authority is not inherently legitimated, it must be justified to serve to protect the inherent freedom and rights of man. According to American democracy, as Thoreau noted, as a citizen, if you do not believe a law or a governmental practice serves to protect and preserve freedom, then you are not duty bound to follow that law or even obey the government.

Communism/Marxism is not founded on any of these principles. No matter how egalitarian, ideal, or utopian their promises may seem to be, they can never prevent the exploitation of citizens and the widespread abuse of political power.

I don't see where I defined democracy. I did say that I do think a truely communistic society would have to be a democracy, so I get where you are disagreeing there.

If you would like me to do so, a democracy is a society in which every adult has a say in their government. It has nothing to do with capitalism OR communism. Democracy is a totally separate concept. The world has yet to see a true democracy, so I am not waiting with "baited breath."

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

It has to be one of the supreme ironies of history that attempts to create a "Heaven on Earth" have generally resulted in the exact opposite.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

I don't see where I defined democracy. I did say that I do think a truely communistic society would have to be a democracy, so I get where you are disagreeing there.

If you would like me to do so, a democracy is a society in which every adult has a say in their government. It has nothing to do with capitalism OR communism. Democracy is a totally separate concept. The world has yet to see a true democracy, so I am not waiting with "baited breath."

Well, this isn't really a big deal, and I guess it's kind of a digression from the main topic. You did say that a democracy is "a government of the working class," and I was just saying that in a true democracy or a constitutional republic (what America is), there aren't class distinctions.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Theoretically there aren't. But as we all know, reality and theory are two different ballgames -- class distinctions have always existed in America, and they show no sign of going away. If anything, they're becoming more firmly entrenched.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Theoretically there aren't. But as we all know, reality and theory are two different ballgames -- class distinctions have always existed in America, and they show no sign of going away. If anything, they're becoming more firmly entrenched.

Exactly. I totally agree. They really become self-fulfilling prophecies and undermine everything this country stands for.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Paul Fussell's book "Class" is an absolutely devastating look at class distinctions in American culture -- once one reads it, it becomes obvious that we're as class-ridden in our own way as the British, but generally without a sense of humor about it. Fussell also makes the vital point that our class structure has nothing to do with how much money you have -- if you're born a prole, and make a ton of money, you still won't be upper class, or even upper-middle-class. You'll just be a rich prole. This accounts, in its way, for the utter crassness of so many wealthy folk today.

 

[JohnnyLoco]

Paul Fussell's book "Class" is an absolutely devastating look at class distinctions in American culture -- once one reads it, it becomes obvious that we're as class-ridden in our own way as the British, but generally without a sense of humor about it. Fussell also makes the vital point that our class structure has nothing to do with how much money you have -- if you're born a prole, and make a ton of money, you still won't be upper class, or even upper-middle-class. You'll just be a rich prole.

The problem we have theoretically though, which is the mistake that Marx makes in his writings, is giving too much moral weight to class distinctions, which are not objectively real, but rather exist only in the minds of the pompous and arrogant or the bitter and disenfranchised. Class is kind of like Freddy Krueger, you stop believing in it and it mysteriously looses its power.

 

[LizzieMaine]

You might be able to convince yourself that you're free of it -- but others will still judge you according to class distinction, and their actions toward you will reflect that. Class distinctions are still very very strong at the very top of our structure here, our American aristocracy. They might talk friendly with you, might compliment your work, might even put in a good word for you here and there. But don't you dare try to marry their son or daughter. The proles and the petit-bourgeois must know their place. Once again, the difference between the world of the textbook page and the way the world really works.

 

[sheeplady]

Well, this isn't really a big deal, and I guess it's kind of a digression from the main topic. You did say that a democracy is "a government of the working class," and I was just saying that in a true democracy or a constitutional republic (what America is), there aren't class distinctions.

That's an inclarity on my part. What I meant is that a communistic society (true, real communism, not a dictatorship) would have to have a government of the working class. China, by no ways or means, has a government made up of working class people- they are all extreme elites. If we think it's hard to get elected in the US as a "common person" it is even harder to take any part in the government there, at any level.

Paul Fussell's book "Class" is an absolutely devastating look at class distinctions in American culture -- once one reads it, it becomes obvious that we're as class-ridden in our own way as the British, but generally without a sense of humor about it. Fussell also makes the vital point that our class structure has nothing to do with how much money you have -- if you're born a prole, and make a ton of money, you still won't be upper class, or even upper-middle-class. You'll just be a rich prole. This accounts, in its way, for the utter crassness of so many wealthy folk today.

This is on a totally separate note, but I have come to believe that a significant portion of people will *never* stop caring about class distinctions. I'm pretty sure if there was a nuclear event and 10 humans left they would create a class system.

I first really realized (as in it became painfully acute) that people think class doesn't matter when I had a 30 minute argument with an individual about if there were "low income" students at our university. Any idiot could come here for a week and it would be plain as day that not all our students are homogenous as far as income. I'd be amazed if it took them a day.

 

[Mario]

As far as I'm concerned, it's just a style, a design aesthetic I like- they're just clothes. I'm not in costume, I'm not playing a part.

Couldn't have said it better. It's somthing I have to explain to all sorts of intrusive, smart-assed peopler over and over again.