When do Cuban cigars become legally available in the US?

[HudsonHawk]

That was not the first thing. Castro did not turn to the Soviet Union until it was obvious the US was not going to recognize his government. There was a period of 4 or 5 months when the whole business was hanging fire.

But it's incredibly naïve to think that there would have been legitimate elections. Castro was a Marxist, who seized power in a military coup from someone who had seized power in a military coup and cancelled elections. Democracy was simply not a Castro's agenda.

President Truman blamed Eisenhower for dropping the ball. He should have contacted Castro at once, in Truman's opinion. This was written up in Plain Speaking by Merle Miller, Truman's memoir.

No doubt the ball was dropped, and has continued to be fumbled for 55 years. And no doubt the embargo and the US's reaction galvanized his regime to some extent. But I don't think it's fair to say it would have taken care of itself and Castro would have simply gone away in a few years.

 

[HudsonHawk]

What if Eisenhower had recognized the Castro government in 1959? Do you think it possible the political situation would have got back to normal within a reasonable period of time? Could Castro have afforded to alienate the US? Would he not have pursued a different policy if he was aligned with the US rather than the Soviet Union?

I don't think Castro would have embraced the US. However, the way to loosen things up within the Cuban people would have been inclusion rather than isolation. I think it would have taken another revolution to oust Castro, but it very well may have happened if the US had reacted differently.

Castro turned to the Soviets after Eisenhower refused to recognize him. After that, he had to align with Soviet policy or lose their support. And if they ever left Cuba it was only a matter of time before his head ended up on a stick.

But he was a Marxist and rejected capitalism and the US outright. The Soviets didn't really want to have anything to do with him, and didn't even know who he was or what he was doing. All they knew was he was pissing off the US, so they were up for that. I agree a different tact could have gotten rid of him, but it would not have been easy.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Are you kidding? Castro tried to embrace the US. Only after he got the cold shoulder did he turn to the Soviets. It was several years later that he declared himself a Marxist.

To the big business heels and gamblers anyone who interfered with their profits was a commie. If Castro could have cleaned out the crooks and grafters without losing American support he would have. But given the choice between handing his country over to a pack of thieves or siding with Khrushchev, he took Khrushchev. I agree it was not much of a choice but he did what he thought best under the circumstances.

This is not the place for political discussions so, we had better end this.

 

[Stanley Doble]

You are wrong about the Communists too. In 1959, the top men in Soviet politics were in their fifties and sixties, aging veterans of the Russian revolution. Castro's revolution made them feel young again. Their politics had turned into a dreary round of bureaucracy, suddenly these young men in Cuba and South America made revolution a living force.

They were eager to get involved with Cuba for personal reasons as well as geopolitics. All this according to Soviet sources who saw the Soviet reaction at the time.

 

[Stanley Doble]

The whole point of the July 26 movement was to get rid of the tyrants, crooks, grafters, and exploiters and restore democracy and justice.

 

[HoosierDaddy]

This is not the place for political discussions so, we had better end this.

Wait..what about this..??? lol :bounce:

 

[Stanley Doble]

Ended.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Are you kidding? Castro tried to embrace the US. Only after he got the cold shoulder did he turn to the Soviets. It was several years later that he declared himself a Marxist.

That is simply not true. Castro and Guevara were both Marxists-Leninists from the start of the revolution, despite the fact that he didn't pubically declare it until 1961.

This is not the place for political discussions so, we had better end this.

This isn't a political discussion, it's a history discussion. But ok.

 

[HudsonHawk]

The whole point of the July 26 movement was to get rid of the tyrants, crooks, grafters, and exploiters and restore democracy and justice.

It had no designs on democracy whatsoever. It was a socialist movement from the very beginning.

 

[HudsonHawk]

You are wrong about the Communists too. In 1959, the top men in Soviet politics were in their fifties and sixties, aging veterans of the Russian revolution. Castro's revolution made them feel young again. Their politics had turned into a dreary round of bureaucracy, suddenly these young men in Cuba and South America made revolution a living force.

They were eager to get involved with Cuba for personal reasons as well as geopolitics. All this according to Soviet sources who saw the Soviet reaction at the time.

At the beginning of the revolution, the Soviets had little interest in it or in Castro as Cuba was seen as having little influence. They simply didn't matter. It wasn't until later that they realized the Cuban interests aligned with their own, specifically in relation to the U.S. Had Cuba been an island in the South Pacific rather than 90 miles from the U.S., it's likely the Soviets would not have been so eager to embrace.

 

[HudsonHawk]

To the big business heels and gamblers anyone who interfered with their profits was a commie. If Castro could have cleaned out the crooks and grafters without losing American support he would have. But given the choice between handing his country over to a pack of thieves or siding with Khrushchev, he took Khrushchev. I agree it was not much of a choice but he did what he thought best under the circumstances.

It wasn't just "interfering with profits" it was the seizure of private assets and placing them under state control that made them communists. Anti-capitalism, particularly that of the U.S. which they viewed as imperialism, was the basis for of Castro and Guevara's reforms. To suggest they tried democracy and capitalism and got the cold shoulder forcing them in a socialist direction is simply re-writing history.

 

[LuvMyMan]

So...is there any inside scoop on when people can actually purchase some fine cuban cigars?

 

[HudsonHawk]

So...is there any inside scoop on when people can actually purchase some fine cuban cigars?

In the US? No. It's still a ways off.

 

[Stanley Doble]

Cuba became The Land That Time Forgot thanks to the US embargo. There is no way the Castro regime could have survived without it. Every other Communist government collapsed except North Korea and Cuba, the only ones supported by a US embargo.

 

[HudsonHawk]

Cuba became The Land That Time Forgot thanks to the US embargo. There is no way the Castro regime could have survived without it. Every other Communist government collapsed except North Korea and Cuba, the only ones supported by a US embargo.

Well, there's also China. North Korea survives because of China, not because they don't trade with the US.

 

[Stanley Doble]

You take me too literally. I know Cuba and North Korea would still exist with or without Communism. I am saying the US embargo is one of the things that keeps their Communist governments in power. Things that would otherwise be intolerable and impossible, can go on as long as you have a foreign enemy to blame, and to frighten the people with.

Look at the changes that have taken place in China since Nixon recognized their government in 1974. Look at any other Communist government, if you can find one. They all had to adapt to the 21st century or die, except for Cuba and North Korea.

You will see some big changes in Cuba in the next few years if the embargo ends.

 

[HudsonHawk]

You take me too literally. I know Cuba and North Korea would still exist with or without Communism. I am saying the US embargo is one of the things that keeps their Communist governments in power. Things that would otherwise be intolerable and impossible, can go on as long as you have a foreign enemy to blame, and to frighten the people with.

Look at the changes that have taken place in China since Nixon recognized their government in 1974. Look at any other Communist government, if you can find one. They all had to adapt to the 21st century or die, except for Cuba and North Korea.

You will see some big changes in Cuba in the next few years if the embargo ends.

And you seem to want to argue past me. I agree with you on all those things. The embargo has been a complete failure.

 

[Stanley Doble]

You might also want to look into how the American interests came by their Cuban properties, then tell me who robbed or swindled who.

 

[HudsonHawk]

You might also want to look into how the American interests came by their Cuban properties, then tell me who robbed or swindled who.

Nice strawman. If that's all you want to do in this dicsussion, knock yourself out.

 

[Guttersnipe]

Americans are allowed to purchase Cuban products outside the U.S. and bring them back into the U.S., but only in limited amounts. As I recall, the limit is 10 cigars. The same goes for rum. I have friends who bring back a few bottles of Havana Club rum and some cigars every time they travel to Mexico.