When did the pin-up look take over the vintage esthetic?

[sheeplady]

I think the larger question is, and citing the book that Lizzie mentioned: Do women dress, weather pro or con, based on the wanted or unwanted reaction of men/others reactions? If that is the case then where is the line drawn for 'dressing for you'? Does that require approval as well?

I think there's a good question here as to if we ever *can* separate our own desires from those of society. By which I don't mean that women don't know their own minds, but rather we are products of society.

Something has taught us what we feel is sexy is sexy. Although I buy into some of it being innate and evolutionary-- for instance a shapely female figure suggests fertility, eye makeup emphasizes "healthy" eyes, etc.-- when it comes to clothing I don't buy that much of that is based on anything but social taste. We're raised from infancy in a sexualized environment. Even the most conscious person can't avoid their child being exposed to advertising, modern media, and peers (particularly older peers). (And those who are overzealous in trying to extremely restrict a child's exposure to these things find it backfires once the child is independent. For instance, the parent who forbids their child to ever watch any television, even at a friends house or school tends to raise a TV binger.)

Now this exposure doesn't mean that a child automatically becomes a sexpot wearing midriff tops and sweats with words on the butt. What it does mean is that we are all well aware of the norms of society when it comes to dress, particularly sexy dress. We're also enculturated into understanding what is glamorous, flirty, raunchy, etc. There's a reason why we can all point to certain actresses and say that they are glamorous.

I think it is questionable if anyone who is raised in a culture can ever truly separate what is their own view from the culture's view. Even if you hold a different view from the dominant culture, it is so often stated in terms of contrast to the dominant culture.

And I would add that men are subject to the same rules and socialization process (tailored to the fact that they are socialized as males) as to what they find sexy in women's clothing too.

 

[scarlett]

This is a very interesting thread ladies. I would describe my own style as retro or vintage inspired. I have noticed, as Lady Day has that all the big producers of repro have gone over the top with a cartoonish pinup style. (I'm glad I'm not the only one. I was afraid I was getting old fast) It wasn't that long ago that you could purchase simple pencil and circle skirts, cardigans and blouses that you could wear with vintage pieces. Right now the colors, shapes and prints are too costume looking for me. I'm not the skull and halter top type either Sheeplady.
I look forward to reading everyone's take on this subject.

 

[TheSacredFemme]

May I throw in that some of this is diverting into, "Some women do this which means this about self respect." Live and let live. A knee length skirt does not imply that somebody has a stronger moral code than a pair of short shorts.


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[LizzieMaine]

Even the most conscious person can't avoid their child being exposed to advertising, modern media, and peers (particularly older peers). (And those who are overzealous in trying to extremely restrict a child's exposure to these things find it backfires once the child is independent. For instance, the parent who forbids their child to ever watch any television, even at a friends house or school tends to raise a TV binger.)

Which is why I think a far better strategy than locking a kid up and trying to isolate them from the world is to make sure they grow up understanding how media works, exactly who is manipulating the viewer, and for what purpose. Once a child understands that the entire purpose of mass media -- TV, music, the Internet, whatever -- is to convince them that they need what the system is selling, whether it's merchandise or ideas -- they'll at least have a chance of developing into a critical thinker instead of just another pasty-brained consumer.

 

[sheeplady]

May I throw in that some of this is diverting into, "Some women do this which means this about self respect." Live and let live. A knee length skirt does not imply that somebody has a stronger moral code than a pair of short shorts.


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And that's the point. The media has sold women into this notion that "clothes=empowerment."

That's bull. Clothes don't equal empowerment. Spending money doesn't equal empowerment. POWER=empowerment.

In our U.S. culture, it is often seen as taking one's clothes off is a sign of empowerment. We're more likely to see a stripper as more empowered than a woman who wears a burqa. We have this twisted notion that being unafraid of one's body means being willing to bare more of it. That is a simplistic notion. A woman wearing a burqa can be just as empowered or disempowered as a woman in a bikini.

In our U.S. culture, we're often told that dressing a certain way equals empowerment in the office space. No low cut blouses. No tight clothes, but they should be fitted. Suits can be mildly colorful, but sober. Heels should be no more than 3 inches in height. Hose should be dark. We have this twisted notion that women should, in large part, dress like men in the office environment- even when men are given more freedom in those same environments as far as dress. If you want to be taken seriously, dress seriously. As if our ideas as women suddenly don't stack up when we're in a sun dress?

Men, I might add, aren't subject to the same rules as women when it comes to judging empowerment off of dress. No one ever looks at a man in a suit and says, "Gee, you dress awfully uptight. You must be frigid in bed" or "Wow, you are so comfortable with your body in that Speedo." But it happens to women all the time- both ways.

What is far more important is the *reasons* why the woman is choosing those clothes. Is she doing it because she has no other choice? Is she forced to wear them, either directly or indirectly by social norms and rules? Does she think that wearing these clothes signifies something to outside society? Does it signify something to someone else? Does it signify something to the person wearing it?

The point of my discussion about the short shorts versus my knee length skirt is that *anything* and *everything* can be sexualized. The idea that we, as women, can escape objectification based upon what we wear is absurd in some sense. No matter how you look or what you wear, someone is going to objectify you. Believe me, there is a fetish out there for *everything.*

The question is, can we ever be free enough in a society where we are taught these norms and rules from the beginning of our lives, to actually say that we are doing something for ourselves?

It's a good question. I can say that in order to be able to say that you are making the empowered choice when it comes to clothing it takes a lot of long and hard thinking. No one can look at any person and the way they dress and make any sort of decision as to their empowerment.

 

[sheeplady]

Which is why I think a far better strategy than locking a kid up and trying to isolate them from the world is to make sure they grow up understanding how media works, exactly who is manipulating the viewer, and for what purpose. Once a child understands that the entire purpose of mass media -- TV, music, the Internet, whatever -- is to convince them that they need what the system is selling, whether it's merchandise or ideas -- they'll at least have a chance of developing into a critical thinker instead of just another pasty-brained consumer.

I agree. My parents didn't really limit my media exposure. One of the things my mother did right is encourage me as a young girl to read the headlines on the grocery magazines and she would tell me why they were wrong.

Cue a couple of really vulgar ways to put things that I can't write on here, but needless to say, most of Cosmo came down to, ' "How to please him in bed" equates being female and having female parts if he's into women. If he's not into women or you, don't bother.'

 

[LizzieMaine]

Ariel Levy has a *lot* to say about the messages Cosmo sends to young women. It's important to note that she's not coming at this question from any sort of position of ultraconservativism -- she's not a prude by any means. What she's against -- and militantly so -- is the *commercialization* of women's sexuality. She's not talking about sex workers when she refers to that, either -- she's referring to the way in which all women, as a class, whether they like it or not, are being commodified into sexual merchandise by modern commercial culture. Fashion is part of that, but just a part -- it penetrates into just about every level of modern popular culture. To the makers and shapers of that culture, a woman -- any woman -- is first and foremost defined by her sexual potential. And that's done because, plain and simple, there's money in it.

 

[Lady Day]

Ariel Levy has a *lot* to say about the messages Cosmo sends to young women. It's important to note that she's not coming at this question from any sort of position of ultraconservativism -- she's not a prude by any means. What she's against -- and militantly so -- is the *commercialization* of women's sexuality. She's not talking about sex workers when she refers to that, either -- she's referring to the way in which all women, as a class, whether they like it or not, are being commodified into sexual merchandise by modern commercial culture. Fashion is part of that, but just a part -- it penetrates into just about every level of modern popular culture. To the makers and shapers of that culture, a woman -- any woman -- is first and foremost defined by her sexual potential. And that's done because, plain and simple, there's money in it.

ANd this actually brings the topic full circle. Women are given two categories when it comes to dress. They can either "Advertise" their sexuality or not. And both are equally disingenuous. Women are constantly placed in a sexual persona. Is she sexual enough, is she not sexual, is she attempting to allure me, etc. Even when we do it to ourselves, is it really? As Sheeplady mentioned earlier.

It just seems that women's dress is a never ending sexual paradox.

 

[LizzieMaine]

The point of my discussion about the short shorts versus my knee length skirt is that *anything* and *everything* can be sexualized. The idea that we, as women, can escape objectification based upon what we wear is absurd in some sense. No matter how you look or what you wear, someone is going to objectify you. Believe me, there is a fetish out there for *everything.*

I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. In real life, I'm probably the least "sexualized" person you'll see on the street -- I'm middle-aged, small-breasted, pot-bellied, and flat-assed, I have baggy eyes, seldom wear makeup, and usually have my hair tied up in a headcloth. I wear homemade cotton dresses that go to an inch below my knees, and low, flat housewife oxfords. While I do wear seamed stockings from time to time, they're usually heavy support hose or opaque cotton.

And yet, I've had a creeper around town whose name and identity I do not know *track me down to my house* and leave disturbing notes on my door. Because of this, I keep a gun in my nightstand and am always on the alert when I'm out in public alone.

If *I'm* getting stalked by a pervert, in a two-bit podunk town like this, it can happen to you, your mother, your sister, your daughter, or your niece. *None of us* are immune to this. How we dress is irrelevant. The mere fact that we're women in a male-dominated culture that reduces everything to the lowest sexual denominator, makes us potential targets. It's a problem that belongs to every single one of us here, and every other woman we care about. Don't ever, ever forget that.

 

[sheeplady]

I've told this story before, but it bears repeating. In real life, I'm probably the least "sexualized" person you'll see on the street -- I'm middle-aged, small-breasted, pot-bellied, and flat-assed, I have baggy eyes, seldom wear makeup, and usually have my hair tied up in a headcloth. I wear homemade cotton dresses that go to an inch below my knees, and low, flat housewife oxfords. While I do wear seamed stockings from time to time, they're usually heavy support hose or opaque cotton.

And yet, I've had a creeper around town whose name and identity I do not know *track me down to my house* and leave disturbing notes on my door. Because of this, I keep a gun in my nightstand and am always on the alert when I'm out in public alone.

If *I'm* getting stalked by a pervert, in a two-bit podunk town like this, it can happen to you, your mother, your sister, your daughter, or your niece. *None of us* are immune to this. How we dress is irrelevant. The mere fact that we're women in a male-dominated culture that reduces everything to the lowest sexual denominator, makes us potential targets. It's a problem that belongs to every single one of us here, and every other woman we care about. Don't ever, ever forget that.

One of the scariest experiences in my life occurred when I was pregnant with my daughter and dressed like a total frump. I had a man follow me off the bus, proceed to follow me with unwanted advances, and personal questions a murderer would ask (do you live alone? Where do you live?) for about 5 blocks. It was honestly the only time in my life I thought I was going to be murdered by a stranger, and it was not the first time I've been followed or harassed.

It is also the only time in my life I have ever gotten myself out of a situation with quick thinking.

 

[Amy Jeanne]

I have a running joke with my friends. I'm always the sweet, innocent church girl and they are the pinup bombshells. They are both totally over the top in their dressing. I like to try to wear what a woman really would have worn back then, but I like both styles. And I can attest to the fact that I dressing like the "church girl" doesn't make me an innocent angel

 

[Lady Day]

So at what point does style become costume, or is that totally subjective?

 

[LizzieMaine]

I think all style *is* costume, in that we use it as a way of creating a persona we want to project to the world. I think the modern fashionista who meticulously selects her garments and makeup to create a particular "stylish" or "trendy" look is creating a costume for herself just as much as the gal who gets rigged up in full Edwardian attire to go to a Downtown Abbey role-playing convention. What's the saying -- "You're born naked, all the rest is drag."

 

[MarieAnne]

Several years ago, I was looking for a vintage-style swimsuit. The woman at the store led me to a string bikini. "This isn't vintage." "But it has cherries on it":eusa_doh:

 

[sheeplady]

So at what point does style become costume, or is that totally subjective?

I think it is subjective, but it definitely becomes costume when you put on a different persona than your own. I mean a totally different characterization of yourself, as opposed to a facet. When I teach (and I dress a certain way to teach) a different aspect/facet of my persona comes out than if I am out doing yardwork and have to run into a hardware store; but both are me, just different facets of my persona.

If I doll up in a pinup costume and start acting like a pinup with a laugh that is different than my own, etc. than I think that's a costume. Because it is unnatural and not me. For me, it would be acting, and the dress would be a prop. It's a very fine line, however, as I think to some extent we "act" out roles in our lives often.

It is definitely costume when you appropriate the clothes, mannerisms, speech, attitudes, etc. of another culture or sub-culture of which you have no connection or affiliation.

 

[TheSacredFemme]

I study costume construction at university and remember a really interesting design lecture where individual students got asked to stand at the front of the lecture theatre and to explain their clothing choices. "I wear this necklace because my mother gave it to me, I wear leggings under skirts because I'm self-conscious of my knees, I prefer my hair up like this because I don't like to fuss." The moral of the story was to see how characters we may design for would have similar thoughts when they get dressed. Hence, I would always say that how we chose to dress every day is always costume- an expression of personality, likes and dislikes, worries, security blankets made up of engagement rings, a favourite shirt, an heirloom.


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[Fofi]

This is a very interesting thread! I am a vintage newbie (I've been dressing vintage inspired for less than a year, even though I have always loved the style!), and sometimes it is quite difficult to determine whether something really is period accurate. There are some things I do like in pin up style shops but most of the time I feel like they match my personnality less than real vintage reproduction... It's partly why I have started sewing my own dresses (but as a beginner it takes me a really long time to complete just one dress!)
I would say that pin up style has become very popular also because it is much easier to achieve than a real vintage style. Clothes are new and cheaper than repro (I'm not talking about true vintage clothes) and they tend to have a modern touch (like shorter skirts and deeper cleavage...) It also doesn't take up much reasearch to just put on a pin up dress you like, with a hair style and shoes you like if you don't worry at all about period accuracy! I think it is somehow representative of young generations that are very lazy compared to older ones!

 

[DonnaP]

I work at a live-stage theatre, so I can be a little more costumey with my clothing. I wear dresses that I've sewn, which are sort of 50/60's hybrids to be more flattering to my plus size body. Recently my (female--might make this read different) boss made a complimentary remark about my "pinup style" and I recognized it as a compliment and didn't correct her, but I did feel dress more vintage than pinup. But as another poster commented, "pinup" is an easy phrase that people recognize. Same as in the 80's when I was more New Wave, but people would comment on my "****" look. Aside from the theater--and despite working in an atmosphere where people love how I dress, no one else dresses this way--I'm not really in a community where people where vintage that much. There's a big burlesque revival, but the women to dress vintage every day. So yeah, mostly when people compliment me they say that's pinup/rockabilly, right?

 

[Flicka]

Really interesting discussion. One thing I have been thinking about is makeup. Women in the era usually wore very little makeup - a little powder and lipstick if any at all – and yet, full on warpaint seems to have become a requirement for the "vintage look". People aren't really into 20s and 30s and 40s and 50s clothing as much as into an idea about Hollywood stars and pinups of old. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not where I'm coming from, and not where I want to go.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Very good point. My grandmother was as 1940s a woman as you'd ever meet -- even in the 1970s she looked and dressed exactly like she did in 1941 -- but the only makeup she ever wore in her life was lipstick and a bit of powder on her nose. I don't think she even knew how to use mascara or eyeliner.

I think it's true of vintage culture in general, and not just among women, that the focus has narrowed to a highly stylized notion of how people dressed. Most women you saw on the street in the Era didn't look they got lost on their way to the Paramount commissary, just as most as the men you saw didn't look like they just stepped out of an ad in Esquire. You need only to look at some of the menswear threads around the Lounge to see that male "vintage buffs" would likely have little use for the average real world 1941 male in his baggy, shiny-seated blue serge suit, the tattle-tale grey shirt with the frayed collar, the gravy-spotted tie, the lopsided hat, and the run-over half-soled scuffed up Friendly Five shoes.

(And it's always good to see you around, Flicka!)