Whatever happened to "coat and tie required"?

[1961MJS]

Perhaps, but shouldn't a line be drawn somewhere? ...
Cheers,
Tom

Hi Tom

Yes, a line should be drawn, but it should be drawn by the restaurant owners, theater owners, and department store owners. There is at least one (didn't use Google) restaurant that will actually cut your tie off, if you wear one into their restaurant. If they can destroy your property (even though you probably wore the tie SO that WOULD cut it off), they can also make you set outside in the rain if you're wearing flip flops.

Later

 

[Tango Yankee]

Consider this. If "society" gets to dictate what one wears, then right now we are in the minority here. "Society" is more likely to dictate that we all wear our pants down around our butts and baseball caps cranked 90 degrees to port instead of suits. Beware of unintended consequences.

Actually, it already does just as it always has--it just depends upon the social group as to what it is. There are some groups where oversized, beltless pants are part of the "uniform" just as there are some groups where a suit is still expected wear for work. The problem here is that one specific group--the group that insists that they can wear whatever they damn well please wherever they are, no matter how inappropriate--has managed to convince the world in general that they should get their way.

Hi Tom

Yes, a line should be drawn, but it should be drawn by the restaurant owners, theater owners, and department store owners.

Which was, if I recall correctly, the point of the original poster--the lament that such lines are no longer being drawn. There was a time when the desired ambiance of a nice restaurant was one that allowed the quiet enjoyment of the company and the meal and the level of dress was part of that ambiance. Sadly, it seems that in today's society the "right" to be loud, obnoxious, and to dress in a manner that may make others lose their appetites has superceded the "right" of those who wish to have a nice dining experience in peace.


I do not think of this as progress, nor is it truly the advancement of anyone's "rights."

Regards,
Tom

 

[Tomasso]

If "society" gets to dictate what one wears, then right now we are in the minority here.

True, what we have experienced is a sartorial paradigm shift and I don't see a reversal anytime soon, if ever.

 

[Effingham]

True, what we have experienced is a sartorial paradigm shift and I don't see a reversal anytime soon, if ever.

But we can still fight the good fight and go down listening to the band.

 

[JimWagner]

The problem here is that one specific group--the group that insists that they can wear whatever they damn well please wherever they are, no matter how inappropriate--has managed to convince the world in general that they should get their way.

The problem I have with this whole line of reasoning is that the group you are talking about is the majority of today's society in general. And there are not now nor have there ever been anything like actual rules (outside of closed entities) that dictate what one wears. There have always been people who have tried to make such rules, but those rules have only been followed by those who chose to.

Now, you are as welcome as anyone else to view how others dress as either appropriate or not. And personally I agree that the way people dress today is a long step down from the way some people used to dress.

To paraphrase, I may not agree with how you dress, but I'll defend your right to dress as you see fit. That's the price of actual freedom. And a lot of Americans have died over the years defending that right as well as a lot of other rights.

Which was, if I recall correctly, the point of the original poster--the lament that such lines are no longer being drawn. There was a time when the desired ambiance of a nice restaurant was one that allowed the quiet enjoyment of the company and the meal and the level of dress was part of that ambiance. Sadly, it seems that in today's society the "right" to be loud, obnoxious, and to dress in a manner that may make others lose their appetites has superceded the "right" of those who wish to have a nice dining experience in peace.

To that I'd say that the lines some restaurants used to draw was their choice and to no longer draw those lines is also their choice. Apparently the financial benefits to drawing those old lines no longer applies, and after all the primary goal of a restaurant is to make money and stay in business.

I do not think of this as progress, nor is it truly the advancement of anyone's "rights."

You cannot buy your rights at the expense of someone else's. And someone dressing differently from you is NOT an infringement on your rights.

Let me be very very clear here, I am not defending sloppy dress. We're all free to comment and point out how bad it is. What we are not free to do is dictate what someone else wears.

If you run a restaurant, club, business or whatever and want to establish a dress code, that is also your right. Just as it's the right of people who patronize your business either follow that code or take their business elsewhere. And if enough people take their business elsewhere then you won't stay in business for long.

I never went to discos in the 70's because I wouldn't be caught dead in a leisure suit. If there are clubs, etc today where you don't get in without wearing sagging pants and ball caps then you certainly won't see me there.

 

[John in Covina]

While rights may be sacrosanct, it is the loss of respect of others that we are lamenting here.

It may be one's right to show up to a funeral as a hobo but it certainly does not speak well of one's concepts of honoring others, respect for others nor one's concepts of what is appropriate.

These ideas are not arbitrary they are about respect for others along with respect for one's self. This is the great down slide that too many people have been taught that it is only their rights that matter but not with rights comes responsibilities.

 

[Tango Yankee]

The problem I have with this whole line of reasoning is that the group you are talking about is the majority of today's society in general.

Yes, that is what I said.

And there are not now nor have there ever been anything like actual rules (outside of closed entities) that dictate what one wears. There have always been people who have tried to make such rules, but those rules have only been followed by those who chose to.

I don't believe I said that there were actual, written down rules in general. What I said is that different groups in society develop their own rules regarding what is acceptable and what isn't. They are not written down, but they are enforced. It's called peer pressure.

Now, you are as welcome as anyone else to view how others dress as either appropriate or not.

Ummm... thanks?

To paraphrase, I may not agree with how you dress, but I'll defend your right to dress as you see fit. That's the price of actual freedom. And a lot of Americans have died over the years defending that right as well as a lot of other rights.

OK, you really didn't need to go there and it's rather insulting that you did. It is well known on this forum that I am a retired USAF Senior Master Sergeant with over 25 years of service. I believe I know a little bit about the price of actual freedom.

(Edit: I just checked, and I see you've only been here since 2009 and I've not been as active over the last couple of years as I was previously. But when my avatar has a photo of myself in uniform on the wall behind me...)

To that I'd say that the lines some restaurants used to draw was their choice and to no longer draw those lines is also their choice. Apparently the financial benefits to drawing those old lines no longer applies, and after all the primary goal of a restaurant is to make money and stay in business.

Which was the whole point of this thread's topic--the lamenting of the loss of nice places to dine where the ambiance did not include having those dressing to the lowest common denominator sitting across from you.

You cannot buy your rights at the expense of someone else's.

Actually, you can but only in the sense that we are not really talking about true, basic rights here which is why in my response I put quotes around the word rights. For example, up until relatively recently I apparently did not have the right to go into a lounge or a bar or a restaurant and have an enjoyable drink or meal with friends without breathing in tobacco smoke and going home with my clothing and hair smelling like a used ashtray not to mention the health risk it entailed. (As the saying goes, "A No Smoking area in a restaurant is like having a No Peeing area in a pool.") Now I do (in some states) and those who smoke are screaming about losing thier right to smoke wherever they want.

And someone dressing differently from you is NOT an infringement on your rights.

It's not? But because of the relaxing of the standards, I apparently no longer have the "right" to expect a dining experience unmarred by having to observe inappropriate dress for the experience. This is, of course, a subjective "right".

Let me be very very clear here, I am not defending sloppy dress. We're all free to comment and point out how bad it is. What we are not free to do is dictate what someone else wears.

And let me be very clear. I was not attempting to dictate what someone else wears. I was joining in the lament of the loss of places that had a minimum standard of dress beyond "No Shoes No Shirt No Service" and fearing that I may see in my lifetime the loss of even that minimum standard.

If you run a restaurant, club, business or whatever and want to establish a dress code, that is also your right. Just as it's the right of people who patronize your business either follow that code or take their business elsewhere. And if enough people take their business elsewhere then you won't stay in business for long.

I don't believe anyone claimed otherwise, and in fact I believe that it is generally agreed that this is the cause of the lack of such places--the bulk of the American public has apparently decided that they really don't give a damn how they look and as a result standards have been relaxed. That doesn't mean that I and others are not allowed to grieve for the fact that there are so few places that do adhere to higher standards left.

I never went to discos in the 70's because I wouldn't be caught dead in a leisure suit. If there are clubs, etc today where you don't get in without wearing sagging pants and ball caps then you certainly won't see me there.

I was in my teens in the '70s, and strictly adhered to KMET Los Angeles's (The Mighty Met) motto, Disco Sucks. For the most part I quit going out very often in the '80s because of the aforementioned "come home smelling like an ashtray" problem.


Regards,
Tom

 

[Mr Vim]

Isn't there a resurgence of places such as restaurants with a certain theme having dress codes? When I was planning my defunct trip to Los Angeles, I noticed several places I planned to stop at required at least slacks and a button down shirt for men, dress for ladies. Was this already covered? My apologies I am a bit tired

 

[Haversack]

Fighting the Good Fight is often its own reward: I have found that dressing well and appropriately for those venues in which one should be well dressed, (fine restaurants, the theatre, even on public transit), you get treated better by the people who work there, (better tables, compted drinks and desserts, compliments). Its all lagniappe.

 

[Pompidou]

While rights may be sacrosanct, it is the loss of respect of others that we are lamenting here.

It may be one's right to show up to a funeral as a hobo but it certainly does not speak well of one's concepts of honoring others, respect for others nor one's concepts of what is appropriate.

These ideas are not arbitrary they are about respect for others along with respect for one's self. This is the great down slide that too many people have been taught that it is only their rights that matter but not with rights comes responsibilities.

The ideas have been proven to be arbitrary by their very change over time. Go back far enough, and the clothes this thread is pining for would've been disrespectful at the sorts of venues this thread wants them back for. Dressing nicely for special occasions may indeed not be arbitrary. That said, the definition of nicely has always changed since the word was coined. I bet there were many people bemoaning the loss of the morning and evening suits and all the peculiarities in that line of etiquette. People weren't dressing nicely when they stopped caring about such. It's all the same now. I think, instead of saying, people aren't dressing acceptably, when they are, by the same token that what people here want to wear was acceptable decades ago, it'd probably be more accurate to just say that people no longer care for suits and ties, just like they no longer care for knickers, stockings and corsets. Time stops for nobody. On the bright side, the precedent about complaining about it, well, the earliest I think was written, was Plato, so one stands in good company doing so.

 

[Tomasso]

Oh, you're still here................ever ask yourself Why......

 

[Tango Yankee]

Oh, you're still here................ever ask yourself Why......

:rofl::rofl:

 

[Pompidou]

Perhaps one option would be for enough supporters of similar opinion to open "The Fedora Lounge" as a brick and mortar establishment. Just keep it small scale at first - maybe a private club to evade mandatory closing times for alcoholic establishments. My town has a "Plainfield Social Club" and while it's pretty much the total opposite of what "The Fedora Lounge" might strive to be, they stay in business so to speak by making revenue on drinks and membership dues. It could work. If there were say, 15 interested club members that were willing to chip in 1,000 each, a small place could be rented and some initial stock and decor purchased. You could grow from there.

 

[ortega76]

Perhaps one option would be for enough supporters of similar opinion to open "The Fedora Lounge" as a brick and mortar establishment. Just keep it small scale at first - maybe a private club to evade mandatory closing times for alcoholic establishments. My town has a "Plainfield Social Club" and while it's pretty much the total opposite of what "The Fedora Lounge" might strive to be, they stay in business so to speak by making revenue on drinks and membership dues. It could work. If there were say, 15 interested club members that were willing to chip in 1,000 each, a small place could be rented and some initial stock and decor purchased. You could grow from there.

Alternately, you could do this on a smaller basis by partnering with an existing bar or establishment to host a themed night. Prohibition parties are getting popular a la Boardwalk Empire. A typical set-up is charging a cover with the proceeds either being split with the bar or you rent for a flat fee. You can set your own dress codes and entertainment without having to set up a whole club with the permits and what not.

 

[John in Covina]

An actual B&M Fedora Lounge would be a wonderful experience and a daunting task to set up because there is so much that goes beyond simply having a place.

How daunting may depend on the area as every state has their own rules regarding clubs and private clubs. There are rules as to how a club may operate that comes from the state regarding things like profit or non-profit status. Then there is the insurance, various permits plus operating costs like rent and utilities to take into consideration. Items to operate the establishment have costs, furniture and other amenities.

My suggestion is for someone to hit the Lotto and handle all of those details and expenses so we can get straight to the fun.

 

[Pompidou]

If people are interested, I could look up that information as it stands in Connecticut. Connecticut seems to be one of the more rigid in its control of alcohol, and I know it's one of the more expensive to start a business in, so the info could be taken as a worst case. Depending on how ownership is handled, I know some sympathetic lenders from my own efforts so far.

 

[Treetopflyer]

This thread made me think about how the coat and tie has even gone away from the Officers Clubs on Navy bases. I remember going to dinner at one of the O-clubs in San Diego in the early 90’s and a coat and tie was required. Due to the fact that the military has cracked down on drinking and driving, no one goes to the O-club at nights anymore, thus none of them are open for dinner since they do not have a demand for it. In fact most bases don’t even have true Officers clubs anymore since having a separate Officers and Enlisted club was not cost effective they consolidated them. They are now called “All Hands Clubs”. Even before they stopped being open for dinner, the coat and tie requirement went away.

I could go on forever about how the military is becoming the same way as society with its dress standards out of uniform and what uniforms they allow to be worn while traveling. In the past the only uniform that was allowed for civilian travel was a dress uniform. Now some branches of the military can travel in their working uniform.

I agree with all of you on the current “Me Generation”, I also think that now that people are paying $100 for a T-shirt, $200 for jeans and $75 for a ball cap they feel entitled to wear it wherever they want.

 

[Tango Yankee]

I could go on forever about how the military is becoming the same way as society with its dress standards out of uniform and what uniforms they allow to be worn while traveling. In the past the only uniform that was allowed for civilian travel was a dress uniform. Now some branches of the military can travel in their working uniform.

Not to worry, Treetopflyer--I've already gone on about it ad-naseum from the USAF perspective elsewhere in the forums!

Cheers,
Tom

 

[Yeps]

I also think that now that people are paying $100 for a T-shirt, $200 for jeans and $75 for a ball cap they feel entitled to wear it wherever they want.

That is a very good point. There is a bit of an idea that the niceness of clothes is directly proportionate to their cost. I don't think this is true, but that is part of the reason I am here, not on some forum praising distressed jeans and designer Ts

 

[John in Covina]

There is a general coarsening of daily life in several directions that is alarming.