What would you wear?

[maintcoder]

Let's not loose Veronica, she's a treasure, as is her husband.

I am not saying anyone should be 'lost', but let's face it. There is an acceptable level of disagreement that can be accommodated and making such wide ranging assumptions about anyone does not foster a community, it fractures and splits it.

 

[Tomasso]

There is an acceptable level of disagreement that can be accommodated and making such wide ranging assumptions about anyone does not foster a community, it fractures and splits it.

I guess it doesn't matter that she's right, or correct. There are so few people who know the rules, as such they're valuable resources. Don't force them away.

 

[reetpleat]

After reading and considering, I have come to my own conclusion. If you are moving in more upper class traditional circles, especially on the east coast or europe, one would do well to attend to the specifics of traditional dress codes. Equally, if one is attending a business event that is related to an industry populated by same, then again, dress strictly according to traditional standards. However, american style has become so informal and so vague that I do not think there is much to be said of standards. The inviter rarely knows what they want, so why should the invitee. They usually just want everyone to have a good time.

If you are just an average guy, or gal, and are going to a party of average guys and gals, then wear a tuxedo if you like, although you risk looking silly if the regular attire or the setting is much more casual. For example, sitting on a couch in a well lit living room playing pictionary in a tuxedo might be silly. A tuxedo at a hip coctail party during the holidays with mood lighting would look sharp. Especially if you, as mentioned previously, can look like you are off to somewhere more exciting soon, or have just come from and are slumming.

Of course, if you are trying to follow traditional rules, the invitation was faulty. It should have said cocktail, or black tie. Evening wear is ambiguous. But in it's ambiguousness, it opens the door to a tuxedo as not out of line.

As for Vulgar, I tend to think of that as a term upper class people apply to the likes of me, and probably most of us on this board.

 

[Senator Jack]

Funny, we're being told it isn't correct to wear a full on tux lest we give everyone the high-hat, but we all know it would be perfectly all right if hipster guy shows up at the party in vintage tux, converse and t-shirt. Then he'd be the wacky daring guy.

 

[fleur]

We attend many formal army functions and cocktail wear to us is a lounge suit rather than full tuxedo for the men with bowtie and ladies dresses are to be between knee and calf length.

 

[Miss Sis]

If the cocktail party's invitation does not state "Black Tie" or "Black Tie Optional", then wearing a tuxedo is overdoing it. You will be perceived as someone who either doesn't read invitations closely enough, or who is desperate to show the world that you have a tuxedo to wear.

"If you've got it, flaunt it" is one of those expressions that should be drawn, quartered and burned.

I think there is confusion here over tuxedos and black tie/white tie?

From an English POV, Black Tie is just that - a black bow tie with a black waistcoat and a black dinner jacket either double or single breasted. This was more understated evening wear.

I don't know if you are thinking White Tie ie/ a Tailcoat when you say Tuxedo? That here is a white bow tie, a white waistcoat and a tailcoat (NOT a Morning coat which is similar but has a cutaway front instead of the 'waistcoat' type front) Think Fred Astaire in Top Hat. This is worn for the most formal occasions - balls and the like.

I always understood a Tuxedo to be a Dinner Jacket - Black tie wear, but I don't know.

I still think looking smarter than under dressed is better, wherever you go.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

 

[Miss Sis]

:eusa_clap Men should wear white tie and top hats much, much more often!

 

[Quigley Brown]

Veronica Parra Knows !

He sure does.

 

[Paisley]

I see that all the time here in NY, Paisley, and I feel bad for the women. Then again, I don't. Obviously, they want to dress, but, on the other hand, they don't seem to cotton to a man that appears to take too much time on his appearance. I also believe, subconsciously, they want children, so if they can't have children, they settle for the man-boy. Take a good, yet surreptitious, look at the dynamic between these couples. Lately, I've noticed that when they walk down the street hand-in-hand, the woman has her hand in front of his, as though she were leading a little boy around. I've also noticed that women are doing a lot of ordering, and paying, in bars and restaurants. Yes, I'm an observer. That's what I do.

Regards.

Senator Jack

There is sophisticated casual and then there is playground casual. You've captured my thoughts exactly in referring to men on said dates as "man-boy." I've sometimes wondered what I would do if a date showed up looking like he'd just come from the playground. Feign illness? Proceed just for the experience? Take him someplace where nobody will recognize me so that I wouldn't have to answer a lot of questions later about my new "boyfriend"?

I've never been a fan of perpetual childhood or adolescence. In fact, I once read in a book on relationships that when one person in a couple acts as a parent, it kills the physical attraction.

 

[Godfrey Park]

I guess it doesn't matter that she's right, or correct. There are so few people who know the rules, as such they're valuable resources. Don't force them away.

Knowledge is one thing. She could have just as easily explained the facts and reasons for such 'rules' as to why a tuxedo was 'overdressing'. But to associate pretentiousness with a perceived sartorial faux pas (which is still her opinion) is rude and should never be tolerated.

 

[DocBob345]

Manners

It is my opinion that Veronica that Veronica is correct in some of her assertions as to dress codes. I do not believe, however, that hers is the final word on those subjects.

I have followed her posts and will certainly consider some for future invitations and manner of dress.

I would only hope that she would use the same vigor and studiousness she has applied to dress codes in her future studies into manners and courtesy.

Hers are the first posts I've read in this forum that were blatantly rude. Her posts do not read to be helpful but merely venomous.

She undoubtedly has done her fair share of research into these dress codes. It would be a shame to lose a resource such as her. But it asks nothing of any one of us to show common courtesy to each other.

I think one's fashion sense carries more weight when accompanied by social sensiblities as well.

Best,
Robert

 

[Hemingway Jones]

.

You know, in print some people are more blunt than others. Veronica presented an opinion and some of you disagreed and some agreed. I don't see any opinion here as stated as being an attack. Debate the issues, not the person.

Personally, and I have to attend quite a few formal functions due to my career and the fund raisers I attend, if I see any sort of "Black tie," "Evening dress," or whatever and I don't know what people will be wearing, I telephone the host and ask. Good Old American pragmatism always works.

 

[Quigley Brown]

I don't think Veronica is a 'she.'

 

[Veronica Parra]

Well, I am. Ask Matt Deckard. Ask Lauren.

She could have just as easily explained the facts [of] such 'rules' as to why a tuxedo was 'overdressing'.

Here are the facts: at a U.S. company party, "Black Tie" is acceptable when it's called for. How does one know when it's called for? Easy: when the invitation says "Black Tie", "Black Tie Preferred", or "Black Tie Optional". How does one know when it's not called for? Simple again: when the invitation says something else, such as "Evening/Cocktail Attire". In the case of U.S. company parties, it really is as clear as that. For reference, please see Mortimer Levitt's excellent book, Class. (Mr. Levitt was the founder and owner of The Custom Shop.)

It's understandable that men like to wear tuxedos. Luckily, there are many occasions and places to do so: restaurants, parties at your home, costume parties, etc. Also, many town clubs and country clubs have a lot of "black tie" functions. You are free to join these clubs, or to attend as the guest of a member.

I intended to offer advice and constructive criticism. I don't take any of this personally and hope that you won't, either. The point is to learn and teach, so that our collective knowledge can improve.

 

[Senator Jack]

Okay, Veronica, I'll give you that there are these rules that have been handed down, but my argument is that since those on the other side of the sartorial fence aren't playing by these rules, why should we? Worse, because they are in the majority, they're now changing the rules to suit themselves. Cocktail/Evening attire is a jacket, t-shirt, and clean jeans? We may think that they are underdressed, but let's face it, you know the guys who are wearing suits to these functions are going home and saying, 'I had to get dressed for nothing. Did you see what Bob was wearing?' Next time, they're in jeans, too, and pretty soon there's nowhere elegant left to go.

You know, the funny thing about what we do is that there are many people who really appreciate it and we actually put smiles on their faces. When my girl and I used to ride around in the old Mustang, top down, just a day out in a small town but dressed to the 60s nines, people would get a kick out it. Some would even say, 'You made our day.' And if I show up at a party in a suit or a tux, though not requested, some men are even encouraged, saying that next time they have the chance they're going to wear one too.

To give this argument some weight, I do have one anecdote to share. About a year ago I started having my nightcaps at new bar that opened in my neighborhood. It's a rock and roll bar, but I stopped in there about 2 a.m. and had a drink. The owner introduced himself - a biker/goth sort of fellow in his late thirties. Well, of course I was the sore thumb there, even though I had played in indie and punk bands for years (see my current avatar) and for a few weeks they wondered who was this strange fellow with the sharp duds. A year later, the owner now wears vintage three-piece suits and fedoras, as does his manager. I can't walk in there without this fellow taking my fedora and sporting it for the rest of the night, and a few weeks ago I had to take him out shopping for tie bars and cufflinks. He's currently obsessed with suits, feels good about the way he looks, and I know that this wouldn't be had I not frequented the place because I thought I was overdressed.

Anyway, I grew up as a punk fighting rules and conformity, and I guess I still have that same mentality. Maybe that's really why I like wearing a tux. I like to annoy people.

Regards,

Senator Jack

 

[melankomas]

Maybe that's really why I like wearing a tux. I like to annoy people.

fftopic: that seems a remarkably amiable way to annoy people lol

there is something to be said for following a standard, and also something for setting one, i imagine. assuming good taste and style (with which i am not gifted; i'd still ring the organizer or follow griff's advice), i see no real objection to raising the bar a bit, as you mention. as clearly shown in maintcoder's experience, those unwilling to jump over it are perfectly capable of sauntering beneath.

 

[Daisy Buchanan]

After reading and considering, I have come to my own conclusion. If you are moving in more upper class traditional circles, especially on the east coast or europe, one would do well to attend to the specifics of traditional dress codes. Equally, if one is attending a business event that is related to an industry populated by same, then again, dress strictly according to traditional standards. However, american style has become so informal and so vague that I do not think there is much to be said of standards. The inviter rarely knows what they want, so why should the invitee. They usually just want everyone to have a good time.

If you are just an average guy, or gal, and are going to a party of average guys and gals, then wear a tuxedo if you like, although you risk looking silly if the regular attire or the setting is much more casual. For example, sitting on a couch in a well lit living room playing pictionary in a tuxedo might be silly. A tuxedo at a hip coctail party during the holidays with mood lighting would look sharp. Especially if you, as mentioned previously, can look like you are off to somewhere more exciting soon, or have just come from and are slumming.

Of course, if you are trying to follow traditional rules, the invitation was faulty. It should have said cocktail, or black tie. Evening wear is ambiguous. But in it's ambiguousness, it opens the door to a tuxedo as not out of line.

As for Vulgar, I tend to think of that as a term upper class people apply to the likes of me, and probably most of us on this board.

I agree with most of what you are saying. Evening wear certainly is an ambiguous term. I would think that it would be perfectly fine for a man to wear a tuxedo to such an event. At least, he should wear a dark, dressy suit if he doesn't have a tux. Khaki's and a polo shirt, IMO, is just not appropriate. However, I don't think that the upper class, or any class for that matter would refer to or think of any of us loungers as "vulgar". We loungers come from a wide realm of financial classes. But, the one thing we all have in common is class, at least that's my opinion. I think that these upper class people that you speak of would think quite highly of us if they saw us dressed in our formal wear. I have seen many a lounger dressed to the nines in formal wear, and each and every one of them looked fantastic, full of class, far from vulgar. We are a group of people who like to dress, and present ourselves in a manner befitting a classier time. We aren't a group of people trying to look like we have a lot of money. We are a group that likes the finer things in life, and like to look good doing it. We just prefer, for many different reasons, to dress more elegant than the styles that are popular today. I don't think the upper class would see us dressed and think of it as vulgar. Many of the older upper class might see us and be happy, reminded of the better times and much better styles of the golden era that they remember.

Maintcoder, men look incredibly handsome in tuxedo's. I don't think that it was wrong for you to wear one to your affair. I always think it's much better to be over dressed than under dressed. Besides, all that matters is that you were happy and comfortable in what you were wearing. And of course I'm sure Phaedra thought you looked very handsome. Men should get dressed up more. People should have more parties that require fancy dress. Hem and I have talked on a few occasions about having a dinner party in the summer on our roof deck and making it Black tie. I think it's fun to have the opportunity to get all decked out. We have so few places to go that allow us to get all dolled up and look our best. I don't know about you, but when I get dressed up I just feel good. You'd think people would want to feel good more often, hence they'd get dressed up more often. Wear that tux as often as you can, men look so great in them....

 

[Briscoeteque]

If it just said 'evening' I would take that to mean dark suit. Any use of the word formal would mean a dinner jacket. I would need to know the nature of the event before I started worrying about tails. To me it almost is contrary to the very nature of tails to be the only guy in them!

 

[jamespowers]

Okay, Veronica, I'll give you that there are these rules that have been handed down, but my argument is that since those on the other side of the sartorial fence aren't playing by these rules, why should we? Worse, because they are in the majority, they're now changing the rules to suit themselves. Cocktail/Evening attire is a jacket, t-shirt, and clean jeans? We may think that they are underdressed, but let's face it, you know the guys who are wearing suits to these functions are going home and saying, 'I had to get dressed for nothing. Did you see what Bob was wearing?' Next time, they're in jeans, too, and pretty soon there's nowhere elegant left to go.

You know, the funny thing about what we do is that there are many people who really appreciate it and we actually put smiles on their faces. When my girl and I used to ride around in the old Mustang, top down, just a day out in a small town but dressed to the 60s nines, people would get a kick out it. Some would even say, 'You made our day.' And if I show up at a party in a suit or a tux, though not requested, some men are even encouraged, saying that next time they have the chance they're going to wear one too.

To give this argument some weight, I do have one anecdote to share. About a year ago I started having my nightcaps at new bar that opened in my neighborhood. It's a rock and roll bar, but I stopped in there about 2 a.m. and had a drink. The owner introduced himself - a biker/goth sort of fellow in his late thirties. Well, of course I was the sore thumb there, even though I had played in indie and punk bands for years (see my current avatar) and for a few weeks they wondered who was this strange fellow with the sharp duds. A year later, the owner now wears vintage three-piece suits and fedoras, as does his manager. I can't walk in there without this fellow taking my fedora and sporting it for the rest of the night, and a few weeks ago I had to take him out shopping for tie bars and cufflinks. He's currently obsessed with suits, feels good about the way he looks, and I know that this wouldn't be had I not frequented the place because I thought I was overdressed.

Anyway, I grew up as a punk fighting rules and conformity, and I guess I still have that same mentality. Maybe that's really why I like wearing a tux. I like to annoy people.

Regards,

Senator Jack

:eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap :eusa_clap
Let me guess, when you really hate them you show up in tails?

Regards,

J