What Was The Last Movie You Watched?

[Fading Fast]

"Professor Marston and the Wonder Women" 2017 with Luke Evans, Rebecca Hall and Bella Heathcote

Harvard Professor of Psychology + Ahead-of-the-Curve Feminist Views + Atypical Sex Life/ Desires = Creation of a Strong Female Comic Book Superhero with S&M / Bondage Overtones

Similar to many of today's biopics, this one plays fast and lose with the facts, but stays kinda close enough to reality to at least sketch the outline of the true story.

As noted in the "helpful and mathematical" equation above, Wonder Woman's creator was a super-smart egghead who respected and encouraged (in the context of the times) independent woman - his wife was a feminist and super-smart egghead, too. Reasonably early in their marriage, they have a threesome that becomes long-term with an also-into-it student that, at least in the movie, works for all three of them most of the time - but owing to the times, the whole thing blows up in everyone's face.

And the next step: All three move in together (of course), both women have Marston's children (of course) while financial needs leads him to create a female comic book hero (of course) that becomes massively successful and controversial (of course). The controversy - which could have been the crux of the movie - is handled too briefly and shadowy.

That, overall, is the major miss of this slow moving, but not boring, story - it is oddly very thin on Wonder Woman who shows up late in the movie and, then, mainly only in one great montage of comic book covers and panels playing against flickering images of the now-familiar-to-the-viewer S&M and bondage predilections of Professor Marston. Wonder Woman's bracelets, bustier, ropes, boots are all sexual fantasy translated into superhero paraphernalia. (However, not once do we see a magic bracelets deflect a bullet - possibly the most creative superhero power of all.)

That's it - the story connects the dots from Marston's life to Wonder Woman and, then, all but ends with Marston's early death leaving his wife and their shared mistress to spend the next forty plus years together (apparently, they really did all get along).

The period details, while beautiful overall (the Harvard classrooms and offices are incredible), are oddly off as they hardly change over the twenty plus year timespan of the movie. It seems, the stylists decided on a late '30s look with only the most modest of tweaks for everything from the '20s to the '40s. Also, oddly, no attempt is made to show the characters aging over that period either.

It's a bit of a strange movie, that could have tightened its narrative and spent more time on Wonder Woman, but it is boosted by the powerful performance of Rebecca Hall and an interesting and atypical story. Only worth viewing if the material interests you.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I saw that when it first came out, and hadn't thought about the lack of aging -- but now that you bring it up, it's glaringly obvious. Maybe because they lived in a cold climate, it helped them keep better.

My main beef with the film, other than the usual simplification-of-a-complex-story was the raw deal they gave Josette Frank -- who they portrayed as a tight-lipped, priggish ultraconservative inquisitor of the comic book industry. She was, in real, life, precisely the opposite -- a progressive-minded child-development specialist who believed comics and even superhero comics could be a positive part of a youngster's reading diet. She *didn't* think much of William Marston or Wonder Woman, it's true -- she thought the character was becoming far too much of a conduit for Marston's personal sex kinks, and she told the executives at DC exactly that. But to paint her in the way she was shown in the film was quite unfair.

Here's an interesting counterpoint by Josette Frank's granddaughter taking the film to task. Based on what she has to say, I think I'd probably have been far more comfortable in the company of Miss Frank than in that of Dr. Marston. Let's have a movie about *her!*

 

[Fading Fast]

I saw that when it first came out, and hadn't thought about the lack of aging -- but now that you bring it up, it's glaringly obvious. Maybe because they lived in a cold climate, it helped them keep better.

My main beef with the film, other than the usual simplification-of-a-complex-story was the raw deal they gave Josette Frank -- who they portrayed as a tight-lipped, priggish ultraconservative inquisitor of the comic book industry. She was, in real, life, precisely the opposite -- a progressive-minded child-development specialist who believed comics and even superhero comics could be a positive part of a youngster's reading diet. She *didn't* think much of William Marston or Wonder Woman, it's true -- she thought the character was becoming far too much of a conduit for Marston's personal sex kinks, and she told the executives at DC exactly that. But to paint her in the way she was shown in the film was quite unfair.

Here's an interesting counterpoint by Josette Frank's granddaughter taking the film to task. Based on what she has to say, I think I'd probably have been far more comfortable in the company of Miss Frank than in that of Dr. Marston. Let's have a movie about *her!*

Hollywood loves its simple morality tales and, today, being narrow-mindedly against a feminist (first box checked) superhero with S&M / bondage overtones (second box checked) created by someone in a threesome (third box checked) is a modern morality tale because today feminism / anything sexual / threesomes are all part of the righteous which is made more righteous when opposed by a stereotypical adversary.

Hence, my guess, Frank's character was changed to give Hollywood the stock villain - a narrow-minded, black-and-white conservative type - it needed to tell the modern good-versus-evil story that it loves to tell - once you are aware of this tick, you see that these types of modern political pieties show up in almost all new movies. It's a shame as the movie version of Frank's character - like the comic book burning scene - feel pat and two dimensional; whereas, real story telling comes in bringing out the grey, the contradictions, the doesn't fit-the-formula details.

FYI, I support the feminist ideas brought out in the movie, believe individuals should be left alone in their sex lives and am disgusted by narrow-minded bigots and censors who want to shove the world into their version of right and wrong. I just see that Hollywood has chosen to do the same thing it loves accusing the other side of by always advocated for one side, misrepresenting and degrading its opponents arguments and twisting every story to make its side the knight in shining armor that it denounced the other side for once doing.

 

[LizzieMaine]

What bugs me is that there *were* actual right-wing anti-comics crusaders who mounted public book-burnings, mostly driven by the same relgious-backed forces that propped up Joseph Ignatius Breen. Josette Frank not only had nothing to do with these people, she hereself was targeted by them, and I have a hard time with their dragging her name into it -- it's like making a movie about the blacklist and having a McCarthy henchman named "Philip Loeb."

It's not like anybody today, other than comics buffs and historians of childrens' literature, would even recognize Frank's name. Better they should have called her Sister Mary Frances Tightpants or something.

 

[Fading Fast]

What bugs me is that there *were* actual right-wing anti-comics crusaders who mounted public book-burnings, mostly driven by the same relgious-backed forces that propped up Joseph Ignatius Breen. Josette Frank not only had nothing to do with these people, she hereself was targeted by them, and I have a hard time with their dragging her name into it -- it's like making a movie about the blacklist and having a McCarthy henchman named "Philip Loeb."

It's not like anybody today, other than comics buffs and historians of childrens' literature, would even recognize Frank's name. Better they should have called her Sister Mary Frances Tightpants or something.

Very fair point - instead of bastardizing a real historical figure, create a fake "representative" to fit your villain template since it's all made up anyway.

 

[3fingers]

What bugs me is that there *were* actual right-wing anti-comics crusaders who mounted public book-burnings, mostly driven by the same relgious-backed forces that propped up Joseph Ignatius Breen.

I doubt I could find it again now, but a few years ago I listened to an "expert" testify before congress about the damage being done to the youth of the nation from reading comic books. I no longer remember the date, but it was sometime in the '40's.
I guess something had to cause all of the beatniks and hippies. Ya, that's it. It was reading all of those comic books.

 

[LizzieMaine]

There's actually a really good movie to be made on the life of Frederic Wertham, who's long been the poster boy for the postwar anti-comics movement -- a dedicated physician who spent years working with troubled kids before deciding that what ailed them was funny books. Wertham was neither the moralizing crusader that the anti-comics crowd wanted him to be nor the fire-breathing, one-dimensional academic killjoy the fanboys think he is -- he was actually a figure of considerable nuance whose weakness was assuming he knew more than he actually did about the subject he was writing about.

The sad fact of the matter is, though, that there were cases where Wertham was right. Some of the sleazier comics of the postwar years, many of them "true crime" titles from fly-by-night hack publishers, were genuinely vile, filled with all kinds of grotesque brutality and violence against women and minorities. Wertham's problem was that this stuff was being openly sold, not just to adults or adolescents, but to small children who were in no way capable of fully processing what they were reading. Where he went off the rails was in assuming all comics were like this.

Wertham had the ill fortune -- or good fortune, depending on your point of view -- of doing his studies at precisely the time that America in general was swirling in the depths of a deep sense of obsessive national paranoia. Had he written his book ten years earlier or ten years later, nobody would have paid him the slightest bit of attention, and he would have ended up one of those nobody writers that turned up in the middle pages of the Readers Digest, in between "Humor In Uniform" and "I Am Joe's Pancreas."

 

[Zombie_61]

Just saw the last 3rd of "CE3K" the other night. Question for all you mavens out there.... At the end the aliens come out looking for all the folks they "invited" for a joy ride round the universe. America decides to send it's "best and brightest" instead... except for Neary who's drafted at the last moment to go with the chosen ones. Now the aliens look up and down the line and choose only our dreamer to go with them. However we never see or find out what happened to the rest of gallant space people? On shot they're there... the next they're gone. No indication that they were invited in.... did they:

1. Bogard their way into the ship?
2. Pack up their toys and go home?
3. Get invited in off camera?

Enquiring minds wanna know. Been pondering this for decades.

Worf

There are actually four different versions of CE3K--the original 1977 theatrical release, a 1980 Special Edition with additional footage produced by Steven Spielberg, a 1990 Criterion Collection LaserDisc version of the '77 release with subtle edits also made by Mr. Spielberg, and a 1998 Collector's Edition re-cut by Mr. Spielberg that includes elements from the '77 and '80 versions. If I remember correctly (and I could be wrong) at least one of those versions had a brief scene showing everyone boarding the mothership.

Columbia Pictures was on the verge of bankruptcy and pushed Mr. Spielberg to have the movie ready for release in late 1977 rather than the summer 1978 release he had planned for, which he later claimed was why some important elements had been left out of the original 1977 version.

 

[Formeruser012523]

^^^ There were FOUR versions of that movie? I never noticed the differences. Seen it so many times over the years. Recommend the movie Super 8, which is great and very similar.

As noted in the "helpful and mathematical" equation above, Wonder Woman's creator was a super-smart egghead who respected and encouraged (in the context of the times) independent woman - his wife was a feminist and super-smart egghead, too. Reasonably early in their marriage, they have a threesome that becomes long-term with an also-into-it student that, at least in the movie, works for all three of them most of the time - but owing to the times, the whole thing blows up in everyone's face.

Why is it that in these things there is always a threesome with a man and two women? Oh, yeah, male dominated Hollywood.

I forgot.



And all feminists are into threesomes? lol

 

[3fingers]

Why is it that in these things there is always a threesome with a man and two women? Oh, yeah, male dominated Hollywood.

Not to be impolite, but would you prefer 2 men and 1 woman?

 

[Formeruser012523]

Not to be impolite, but would you prefer 2 men and 1 woman?

Was just saying that Hollywood's been pretty impolite toward females for some time. Whether that happened in reality or just in that particular "based on a true story" movie or not, it's just, awkward to watch for most of us. I don't happen to love watching threesomes or even seeing a nude or partially nude woman on tv. Keep my tv off most of the time now.

If you enjoy that sort of programming, that's your prerogative.

 

[Fading Fast]

^^^ There were FOUR versions of that movie? I never noticed the differences. Seen it so many times over the years. Recommend the movie Super 8, which is great and very similar.



Why is it that in these things there is always a threesome with a man and two women? Oh, yeah, male dominated Hollywood.

I forgot.



And all feminists are into threesomes? lol

Hollywood is male dominated and liberal dominated and that comes out in almost every movie. It can be quite tiresome.

While there is much more female than male nudity in movies and TV, my girlfriend and I have noticed a marked increase in male nudity - including the always jarring full frontal male nudity - in the past five years.

As to the threesome, for this particular movie, I believe it was, basically, historically accurate, but I am not disputing, at all, your wider comment that Hollywood shows two-women-and-one-man ones more than two-men-and-one-woman ones (but I have seen both - a recent episode of "High Maintenance" had a two-men one and it was just as awkward as the two-women kind).

That said, two thoughts. The first is personal: life is too confusing for me already to think for a minute that I could handle a threesome, so I always find them a bit like science fiction - something that happens on another planet or in some ripple in the space-time continuum.

The second: what does the data / research show on threesomes - is there an even balance or do two-men or two-women ones dominate in real life?

 

[LizzieMaine]

Hollywood still makes its films for "the male gaze," even though the majority of moviegoers are female.

As for the Marston menage, one of their granddaughters has come forward in the wake of the movie to contend that that Elizabeth and Olive were never sexually involved with each other -- they lived, after Marston's death, as "sisters, not as lovers."

 

[Fading Fast]

Hollywood still makes its films for "the male gaze," even though the majority of moviegoers are female.

As for the Marston menage, one of their granddaughters has come forward in the wake of the movie to contend that that Elizabeth and Olive were never sexually involved with each other -- they lived, after Marston's death, as "sisters, not as lovers."

I have no desire to prove or disprove whether or not Elizabeth and Olive were or were not sexual involved - it isn't important to me in any way and is only ever so sightly interesting from a historical perspective, but I take a granddaughter's statement - unless backed up with some compelling evidence - as far from convincing as (1) I've learned many things about my grandparents by chance that conflicted with what I thought I knew as I, like E & O's granddaughter, wasn't there with them back in the '30s / '40s and (2) grandchildren have their own present-day agendas for crafting stories about the past.

To your first point, about for "the male gaze," I, as you know, believe profit is the main driver of movie making and, therefor, wonder why this is so if the majority audience is female. I've heard it argued - I am not arguing it nor do I have facts to back it up - that even women, overall, prefer to see women naked than men naked. That seems crazy to me, but would argue that Hollywood is only giving the market what it wants which is what profit-seeking companies do. Perhaps - arguing the reverse and acknowledging it - the increase in male nudity I noted above shows that Hollywood is starting to catch up with its majority audience and is now starting to give it the male nudity it wants.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I'd just as soon not see anybody naked, myself. We had a picture just recently where the very first thing you saw after the credits was Juliette Binoche flat on her back with some fat sweaty old guy on top of her, and a look of desperate resignation on her face. It was intended, I guess, as an utterly un-erotic sex scene, thus setting the tone for the rest of the picture, but I could have done without seeing it. Many in our audience expressed a similar point of view, and the picture did not do well at our box office.

It might also have been intended, though, as a bit of wish-fulfillment spice for the top executives of distribution companies -- most of whom, if photos are to be believed, are themselves fat sweaty old guys. The thought did cross my mind.

 

[Formeruser012523]

While there is much more female than male nudity in movies and TV, my girlfriend and I have noticed a marked increase in male nudity - including the always jarring full frontal male nudity - in the past five years.

As to the threesome, for this particular movie, I believe it was, basically, historically accurate, but I am not disputing, at all, your wider comment that Hollywood shows two-women-and-one-man ones more than two-men-and-one-woman ones (but I have seen both - a recent episode of "High Maintenance" had a two-men one and it was just as awkward as the two-women kind).

That said, two thoughts. The first is personal: life is too confusing for me already to think for a minute that I could handle a threesome, so I always find them a bit like science fiction - something that happens on another planet or in some ripple in the space-time continuum.

The second: what does the data / research show on threesomes - is there an even balance or do two-men or two-women ones dominate in real life?

Like I said, awkward. The only full-frontal on a man I've seen in a movie was in a comedy, as a joke. Then there was The Life of Brian. 70's. AWKWARD. Naked men are funny. Women are sexy. I guess, according to Hollywood?

Suddenly remembering a line from Elaine Benes of Seinfeld "I don't know how you walk around with those things."

Ha! Never been a physicist, wouldn't know on the personal point of that. Don't want to think about that.

I'd just as soon not see anybody naked, myself. We had a picture just recently where the very first thing you saw after the credits was Juliette Binoche flat on her back with some fat sweaty old guy on top of her, and a look of desperate resignation on her face. It was intended, I guess, as an utterly un-erotic sex scene, thus setting the tone for the rest of the picture, but I could have done without seeing it. Many in our audience expressed a similar point of view, and the picture did not do well at our box office.

It might also have been intended, though, as a bit of wish-fulfillment spice for the top executives of distribution companies -- most of whom, if photos are to be believed, are themselves fat sweaty old guys. The thought did cross my mind.

Can't stand seeing any kind of nakedness anymore. After reading story after story of both male and female actors from film and tv being forced into these awkward situations, I just can't. No matter how great people tell me something is. It's become too hard to watch.

Isn't it always the fat sweaty old guys? He was respectfully shot, I'm sure.

 

[Worf]

Here's one for you Zombie ole friend. There's a flick on Netflix called "Cargo". Besides from some really stupid decisions at the beginning it's a wonderful Zombie flick set in the Outback of Australia. It stars one of the Hobbits, you know the one who played Watson on "Sherlock". Aside from the beginning it's logical, compelling and has a realistic not "happy" ending. I recommend it.

Worf

 

[Zombie_61]

Here's one for you Zombie ole friend. There's a flick on Netflix called "Cargo". Besides from some really stupid decisions at the beginning it's a wonderful Zombie flick set in the Outback of Australia. It stars one of the Hobbits, you know the one who played Watson on "Sherlock". Aside from the beginning it's logical, compelling and has a realistic not "happy" ending. I recommend it.

Worf

Ah, that would be Martin Freeman. Thanks for the tip! I'll be sure to watch it as soon as I can; the li'l missus doesn't like those kinds of movies.

 

[Seb Lucas]

I tired to get through Wonder Woman but found it lacking in vitality and surprise. I lasted an hour. I didn't think it was terrible it was just overly familiar and a bit dull.

I cheered myself up by watching Terry Gilliam's Brazil. Now that film still astonishes after 30 plus years.

 

[Fading Fast]

Last night I caught the rollerskating dance scene from "It's Always Fair Weather."

• Life is hard, sometimes pure '50s, non-snarky escapism entertainment is the much-needed short-term antidote

• Astaire effortlessly glides when he walks, dances, skates / Kelly says this is sport and I'm the best athlete out there - two very different styles, both outstanding in their own way

• Cyd Charisse keeps growing on me - there's more there than I first thought

• Kelly's classic grey sack suit, thin black-knit tie and pink pin-collar shirt are the perfect, understated elegance for the scene