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What to do about sloppy dress?

GateXC

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Found this excellent article by William F. Buckley, Jr. in the archives of National Review written back in 1959 bemoaning the trend of college kids not dressing well. It is even more appropriate today.


What To Do About Sloppy Dress?
Forbid It.

By William F. Buckley Jr.

EDITOR'S NOTE: This piece appeared in the January 17, 1959, issue of National Review.

(From a question and answer booklet issued by The Alumni Council of Princeton University, June 1, 1958.)

QUESTION: Why don't Princeton undergraduates look as glossy as they used to? Is it because the admissions people frown on well dressed, social-looking young men?

ANSWER: Certainly not. Since the war, Princeton undergraduates, like those in other colleges, have gone out of their way to wear beat-up clothes. It?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s a fad the GI?¢‚Ǩ‚Ñ¢s started.

If I had been permitted to butt in with the next question, I'd have asked, "What would you do if the next fad called on the students to go about naked?" The answer would presumably have been as evasive as the first, probably something like, "My dear sir, there are laws against indecent exposure." To be sure, and there are none against wearing sweat shirts in a venerable university eating hall, or in a classroom where the lecture that morning may be on the age of elegance; none, even, governing dress in fraternity houses where, it is commonly supposed, it is the elite who meet to eat. The reason? Rules affecting a student's dress are . . .

#AD#But let me relate an experience. At Yale, ten years ago, there gadded about a distinguished professor of philosophy with a mania for equalitarianism. Notwithstanding, he was himself a man of personal taste, of imposing countenance and erect bearing, and one day he decided it would be reasonable to expect members of his college (undergraduate Yale is quartered in ten colleges) to come to dinner at the college dining hall dressed in coat and tie. Accordingly, he laid down the edict. Hours later, a student had summoned fellow members of the college student council in extraordinary session to devise appropriate means of resisting the act of tyranny. In due course the president of the council appeared before the guileless master and announced that it was the consensus of the student council that the ordinance he had passed was undemocratic. The master did not reply (such a reply would not have occurred to him, even as a lascivious possibility) "Tell the student council to go?¢‚Ǩ‚Äùeat democratically some place else." No, our professor of Philosophy simply rescinded his order, aghast at the revelation that, albeit subconsciously, he had entertained an Undemocratic Thought.

It is the knout of Democracy that is most generally used to flail those who believe the administrators of a college are entitled to specify, nay should specify, norms of undergraduate dress. The economic argument, implausible though it increasingly becomes, is still widely used. It holds that coats and ties are expensive, that therefore the uniform requirement that they be worn daily, and hence worn out prematurely, is a form of regressive taxation. The argument is unrealistic because in point of fact ties do not cost very much, and coats made out of a tough material will outlive even a pauper's inclination to wear them.

It is something else, really, that prevents the deans and masters from acting. They fear, in an age of permissiveness, the howl of protest. The dean of the Graduate School at Yale said recently, "The attire of students is incredibly sloppy. It would be fine if we could get away with a rule requiring ties at all meals. A good thing to press for in my retiring years.?¢‚Ǩ?

Must we wait until the Dean retires? Let us hope not. Meanwhile, I make a few observations. The first: Does not insistence on a minimal standard of dress reflect a decent respect for the opinions of mankind? The same community that insists that one pay at least a procedural respect to the opinions of ideological aberrants can hardly be expected to shrink from deferring to society on the appropriate means of clothing one's nakedness. Even in the world of getting and spending, for whose coarseness a considerable contempt is stimulated in many colleges and campuses, coat-and-tie is a prerequisite to participation. The Beats who indulge their sloppiness as a symbol of their individualism can take the measure of their hypocrisy by reflecting on their imminent surrender?¢‚Ǩ‚Äù effective on the day they graduate into the world of commerce in which, almost to a man, they fully intend to spend their lives. The young graduate who informs Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner and Beane that to require coat and tie is undemocratic, can expect a most un-Philosophic reply. I doubt, going further, that there is a Princeton undergraduate who would presume to call on Jack Kerouac without coat and tie. If disorderly attire is a genuine symbol of personal independence, then the college generation should stick by their symbol at least a few decorous weeks after the ink is dry on their baccalaureate degrees. If it is not that, then dishevelment is what it is: a blend of affectation and laziness.

The second point for the academic community to think over is the matter of authority. Is it theirs to stipulate a minimal standard of dress? Professor Joseph T. Curtiss of Yale said recently, "Respectful or respectable dressing is a characteristic of adult society. Some people are born gentlemen, other people acquire gentility during life, still others must have it forced on them." The tendency is to depreciate the beneficence of externally imposed norms of civilized behavior. There are many who, like myself, would, if left alone, permit our standards of personal dress to deteriorate to the level of the downright offensive. Conscientious members of society?¢‚Ǩ‚Äùand I include here, intending no offense, administrators of our colleges and universities?¢‚Ǩ‚Äù should not permit us to indulge our disintegrative proclivities. Coat-and-tie is merely a symbol. It could be courtesy; deference; reverence; humility; moderation: and are these not, all, the proper concern of a college administration? Is there a relationship between a faculty's weakmindedness, and a student body's disorderliness?
 

Hemingway Jones

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"Some people are born gentlemen, other people acquire gentility during life, still others must have it forced on them." This is a great quote, from a thoroughly enjoyable article.
Thanks for posting it. :)
 

RedPop4

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Most excellent article and sentiments.....said the guy who dresses one step above slob. I'm working to get there, I really am. But he's spot on about not wanting to hear the "howls of protest."
 

mysterygal

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great thread! I think our society has lost it's common sense. It's interesting how the 'grown ups' are scared of the kids...I would think that would be a part of being a dean of a school, to stand up for protocol.
My daughter goes to a private school, and at the beginning of each year the school has a teacher/parent night to discuss issues like the dress code. The dress code is basically dressing your kids modest...each time I have been to these events, there are a number of parents who have no idea of what basic common sense dress is for a child.
About indecent exposure, I see plenty of it all the time. Take the low-rider pants that when the wearer bends just a fraction (sometimes doesn't even need to do that) you get a nice view of the string bikini underwear.
Modesty seems to be an underrated thing these days. Parents and authority figures alike need to put a foot down and control this issue, especially since it has already gotten way out of hand.
 

CWetherby

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In my opinion, it's probably just as easy to wear something nice (not fancy, not expensive, just nice--clean, unrumpled, clothes that fit) as to wear anything at all. Self-respect might be the key ingredient lacking, though. Whether one is dressed like a slob or a street-walker (which was once thought to be a bad idea--but have you looked at a clothing advert lately?), will it garner respect from others? Not likely!

What was that Preston Sturges movie where the guy buys himself a nice suit before he looks for a job? Wasn't it "Diamond Jim"?
 

Marc Chevalier

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It is indeed harsh and also not good manners to correct someone in dress. There will be no one going around, in the Observation Bar at least, correcting others in an "of the manor born" fashion. Feel free to dress without fear of reprisal.


(With apologies to Jamespowers.)
 

Brad Bowers

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I suppose I have a backhanded way of telling someone they dress improperly. Whenever anyone comments on my suits or asks why I wear a suit all the time, even if I'm just going to the grocery store, I reply (after thanking them), "I never go out of the house without being properly dressed." I'm telling them the truth as I see it, and if they stop to think about it, they might think I've insulted their clothing, but I'm not intentionally insulting them.

Brad
 

mysterygal

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As far as 'correcting' people on their dress, the only one's I do that to are my children, it is not my place to correct anyone else as far as I"m concerned, though in my head I'll admit I'm insulting them. Now, if I was say, a teacher or a principal of a school, that would be different.
One of the things I tell my kids is that dressing nice not only makes you look better but you actually feel better looking decent when going out to public places, and not only that, you get better service.
 
Marc Chevalier said:
It is indeed harsh and also not good manners to correct someone in dress. There will be no one going around, in the Observation Bar at least, correcting others in an "of the manor born" fashion. Feel free to dress without fear of reprisal.


(With apologies to Jamespowers.)

No apologies necessary but you are mixing apples and oranges. Good manners dictate that you dress appropriately for any occasion. In some countries it is an insult to show up at someone's house for dinner dressed like a bum. It is an insult at my home here in the US. Rudeness in dress is the same as rudeness in conduct.
We are here in The Fedora Lounge to understand and get advice on how to dress appropriately for vintage looks. Just look at the Hats, Suits, Jacket and General Attire and Accoutrements sections. People ask what is correct all the time. We don't say that one should dress inappropriately for any occasion whether that be over dressed or under.
It is also necessary that we understand and teach our children how to dress for the occasion so they will never feel out of place in any situation.
However, do indeed feel free to dress without fear or reprisal as I am not going to be marauding around the Lounge as the Proper Dress Police correcting all that I see. That would be rude and crass. :rolleyes: :p

Regards to all,

J
 

herringbonekid

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mysterygal said:
One of the things I tell my kids is that dressing nice not only makes you look better but you actually feel better looking decent when going out to public places, and not only that, you get better service.

unforunately there is no longer a general agreement as to what 'dressing nice' means. for instance, jeans would once not have been included under 'nice' but now they are ubiquitous, even at formal events.
 

mysterygal

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jeans

I know, I'm seeing more and more people wearing a plain old pair of jeans and a sweater/ t-shirt even to fancy restraunts. This issue is one of my pet peeves. Luckily, I have all girls and they love wearing their dresses, so far it hasn't been a issue. :)
Jeans do though have their place, I wear jeans most of the time, but I usually just go to the store. But I see no reason why a person going about in public wearing jeans with holes all thoughout them or dirt stains, when they could of changed into a cleaner pair at home.
 

Marc Chevalier

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I guess that Bill Buckley has declined a bit since he wrote that rather smug article. For the past twenty years, the man has worn his repp tie askew and his button-down collar loose. If you like to see thinning hair garnished with sebum and flecks of dandruff, then Buckley is your guy.


Zohar got it right: I initiated the "What to do about sloppy spelling?" thread (and posted several scolding comments throughout the FL) in order to encourage folks not to belittle others for their sartorial (or spelling) "errors". As a rule, I don't judge the way others dress, eat, walk, talk, sing, dance, compose or spell unless they ask for my advice.


Some of your own quotes from the "sloppy spelling" thread are right in line with my philosophy. To wit:

I guess it makes some people feel superior when they set themselves up as an "Expert" and then they can always be correcting someone about something. Of course we all know what the definition of an "Ex---spurt" is.
Like Dale Carnegie, I've found that it's useless to scold people.
So, as to the question, What to do about sloppy spelling? I'll take the same approach as I do to the question, What to do about sloppy dressing? I'll quietly wish that everyone could be almost as perfect as me.


That said, I agree with the following:

My daughter goes to a private school, and at the beginning of each year the school has a teacher/parent night to discuss issues like the dress code ... each time I have been to these events, there are a number of parents who have no idea of what basic common sense dress is for a child.
It is also necessary that we understand and teach our children how to dress for the occasion so they will never feel out of place in any situation.

True, but I think that institutions can play an even bigger role in this. I believe that every public and private school in the U.S. should make uniform-wearing mandatory. Uniforms all but eliminate "label competition" between the haves and the have-nots. They are also far more economical for poor families who don't have a lot of extra cash to spend on clothing for their kids. And finally, they look pretty good. In Chile, all students must wear uniforms from Kindergarten through the 12th Grade. Girls as well as boys wear neckties (and not clip-ons, either.) The system works beautifully.


jamespowers said:
However, do indeed feel free to dress without fear or reprisal as I am not going to be marauding around the Lounge as the Proper Dress Police correcting all that I see. That would be rude and crass.
That's the spirit, jamespowers! :cheers1:


.
 

Brad Bowers

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I'm one of those who missed the joke. I actually thought you had gone off the deep end and were really going on a rampage against those who failed to meet proper standards of writing.

This isn't the first time I've had trouble with posts. I have a hard time picking up on facetiousness and sarcasm, and have, sadly, come to rely on emoticons to tell me what people are actually saying.

Brad
 

Weston

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While I hate to provide excuses, has one stepped out to the stores to see what is available to the middle and lower classes to buy? My wife and I looked for new clothes for her in some of the nice department stores. For the most part, all the clothes were purely trendy, even in the women's department! It was difficult for us to find affordable jeans that were normal, and a decent pair of khakis under $40 were impossible to locate! Clothes today are made cheap, sloppy and to wear out or become unfashionable.

People wear what is foisted upon them by corporations- this is as true now as it was in the 50s ?¢‚Ǩ‚Äú when hat companies told you to wear hats! Only now, there is no taste involved!
 

geo

Registered User
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384
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Canada
If people would only wear what's on display in the stores, it wouldn't be that bad. I always wonder when I see store displays and people passing in front of them, at the difference between how badly the people are dressed compared to the display windows of stores. I wonder who buys all those clothes, because the people I see look like they're wearing the same things as 10 years ago.
 

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