H.Johnson
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I'll tell you that that if you promise to explain the difference between cow and steerhide!
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What is the ounce weight of the FQHH Aero uses?
- Thread starter JLStorm
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jac said:
...But of course,Jac.
Same in my years of experience. Most hvy cowhide/steer jackets are more absorbent than hvy HH jackets...just obvious. Compariing Aero's premium steer to their FQHH tells the tale for me.
HD
Since you desire definitions, here you are;
Steerhide
Hide from a mature male bovine, incapable of reproduction, having been raised for beef. American steer hide is known for its strength and durability.
Cowhide
Hide from a mature female bovine that has produced a calf.
Cow Hide which is usually medium weight, produces a wide range of quality, breaks in faster and wears out faster than steer hide.
Premium Steer Hide
Steer hide, which comes from neutered bulls, is somewhat stronger than cow hide. Manufacturers are free to call any steer hide "premium," but in practice they reserve this designation for their better grades of heavy weight steer hide, usually top grain, occasionally full grain. Gloves made of this leather tend to be stiff and somewhat heavy, with longer break-in periods. These leathers are sometimes pre-oiled. Many manufacturers have gone away from premium steerhide both because the market now demands softer gloves, and to save money because few consumers know the difference.
Leather or Cow Hide
"Leather" means cow hide, usually medium weight, but sometimes heavy weight. This category encompasses the greatest range of quality. Cow hide performs well, and will break in faster, but also wear out faster than steer hide. Usually this grade will come "pre-oiled" or otherwise treated to reduce break-in time.
From various sources.
Steerhide
Hide from a mature male bovine, incapable of reproduction, having been raised for beef. American steer hide is known for its strength and durability.
Cowhide
Hide from a mature female bovine that has produced a calf.
Cow Hide which is usually medium weight, produces a wide range of quality, breaks in faster and wears out faster than steer hide.
Premium Steer Hide
Steer hide, which comes from neutered bulls, is somewhat stronger than cow hide. Manufacturers are free to call any steer hide "premium," but in practice they reserve this designation for their better grades of heavy weight steer hide, usually top grain, occasionally full grain. Gloves made of this leather tend to be stiff and somewhat heavy, with longer break-in periods. These leathers are sometimes pre-oiled. Many manufacturers have gone away from premium steerhide both because the market now demands softer gloves, and to save money because few consumers know the difference.
Leather or Cow Hide
"Leather" means cow hide, usually medium weight, but sometimes heavy weight. This category encompasses the greatest range of quality. Cow hide performs well, and will break in faster, but also wear out faster than steer hide. Usually this grade will come "pre-oiled" or otherwise treated to reduce break-in time.
From various sources.
JLStorm
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And here I thought the chrome tanning was responsible for sealing most of the pores of the leather thus making it more water resistant. I have only ever gotten soaked with naked leather, never with steerhide that was treated. I havent owned horsehide though, so I cant compare the two.
H.Johnson
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I accept the definition of 'cow' and 'steer', but I wonder how a buyer (or a garment manufacturer) would be able to tell the difference. Lets call it cattlehide for now and anyway why don't people differentiate between marehide and geldinghide?.
I can't find the detailed results of the tests we did as they were done some years ago, but I can remember enough. Here's what we found:
Experiment 1. Is there a difference between raw horsehide and cattlehide?
Both raw horsehide and raw cattlehide failed to show appreciable results in the static head test. Neither was significantly waterproof. We then cut both hides to the same weight and measured the volume of water they would absorb by immersion. The result was approximately the same.
Conclusion: Neither horsehide or cowhide are naturally waterproof. The degree of water resistance of either thefore must come from the way they are processed, rather than from the natural properties of either.
Experiment 2: Are some leather finishes waterproof and others not so?
For this we asked a number of leather merchants (and, directly, some tanners) to supply samples of horsehide and cowhide, asking them to indicate if they carried out any special process or made any special claims to make the leather waterproof. This apparently simple question, I recall, drew a blank at most of the suppliers. Two, however, came up with definite statements that they could supply waterproof versions of both leathers. All samples were 'blind marked' (so that the technicians did not know which was which). A static head test was then carried out on all samples. All samples resisted penetration to varying degrees, but the highest static head was held by those leathers that had undergone a treatment to make them waterproof, irrespective of whether they were cattlehide or horsehide.
Conclusion: Part of the leather currying or preparation process (e.g. 'fat-liquoring' or oiling) makes leather more waterproof, irrespective of which animal it comes from. Talking to leather experts at the suppliers and leather trades confederations confirmed this.
Experiment 3: Finding the most waterproof leather. Same static head test as above, but with a longer column, this time examining the 'waterproof' samples to see whether they were cattle or horsehide. The results were impressive, four samples exceeded the ISO test for water resistant clothing by a wide margin (this is what Gore used to use in their adverts). The winners were leathers from Horween in Chicago and Pittards in Somerset. The most resistant of all (by a small margin) was a cowhide sample from Pittards (WR100) and a horsehide sample from Horween came second. Personally, the difference was so slight that I would not call it significant. What is significant, I think, is that both companies put effort into making their products waterproof and supply the performance (i.e. sporting, riding and outdoor) market rather than the fashion/automotive/furnishing market. I would say that Horween has a more traditional process, Pittards is mor 'high tech'.
What the tests show, I think, is that any leather that is not intended to be water resistant will not have these properties (is this a surprise?) - some of the horsehide samples obtained from a Continental supplier and intended for fashion clothing was among the poorest performing. If you look at the online catelogues of most bike clothing suppliers, you will see the phrase 'naked cowhide' over and over again. Well, the phrase describes leather that is not waterproof, any more than untreated cotton is waterproof. I suspect that a lot of leather apparel manufacturers are using cowhide that is intended for fashion, automotive or furnishing use for what should be protective clothing. Horsehide tends not to be made for this market, so the chances of it being treated to be water-resistant are higher. If you go to www.horween.com/tannages you will see that they list which of their leather are waterproof.
Recommendation: Make sure when buying leather clothing for motorcycle or outdoor use, that it is made from leather that has been processed to make it waterproof. In other words, take the same procautions as you would if buying outdoor clothing made from textile*. That seems to make more difference than whether it is from a horse, cow or whatever.
* I suppose that the difference is that manufacturers of textile outdoor clothing make a big thing about how they have waterproofed their garments (often with fancy names for the process and diagrams on the label etc.) but leather garment manufacturers almost never do. So, make it your business to find out.
Now (finally) I realise that this will 'cut no ice' with those who already believe that horsehide is always heavier, stiffer, tougher and all-round much better than cattlehide. That's fine. Just one last question. What type of leather are most military/hiking/shooting/sports boots made from? Are they reasonably waterproof? Are they heavy? Are they stiff?
I can't find the detailed results of the tests we did as they were done some years ago, but I can remember enough. Here's what we found:
Experiment 1. Is there a difference between raw horsehide and cattlehide?
Both raw horsehide and raw cattlehide failed to show appreciable results in the static head test. Neither was significantly waterproof. We then cut both hides to the same weight and measured the volume of water they would absorb by immersion. The result was approximately the same.
Conclusion: Neither horsehide or cowhide are naturally waterproof. The degree of water resistance of either thefore must come from the way they are processed, rather than from the natural properties of either.
Experiment 2: Are some leather finishes waterproof and others not so?
For this we asked a number of leather merchants (and, directly, some tanners) to supply samples of horsehide and cowhide, asking them to indicate if they carried out any special process or made any special claims to make the leather waterproof. This apparently simple question, I recall, drew a blank at most of the suppliers. Two, however, came up with definite statements that they could supply waterproof versions of both leathers. All samples were 'blind marked' (so that the technicians did not know which was which). A static head test was then carried out on all samples. All samples resisted penetration to varying degrees, but the highest static head was held by those leathers that had undergone a treatment to make them waterproof, irrespective of whether they were cattlehide or horsehide.
Conclusion: Part of the leather currying or preparation process (e.g. 'fat-liquoring' or oiling) makes leather more waterproof, irrespective of which animal it comes from. Talking to leather experts at the suppliers and leather trades confederations confirmed this.
Experiment 3: Finding the most waterproof leather. Same static head test as above, but with a longer column, this time examining the 'waterproof' samples to see whether they were cattle or horsehide. The results were impressive, four samples exceeded the ISO test for water resistant clothing by a wide margin (this is what Gore used to use in their adverts). The winners were leathers from Horween in Chicago and Pittards in Somerset. The most resistant of all (by a small margin) was a cowhide sample from Pittards (WR100) and a horsehide sample from Horween came second. Personally, the difference was so slight that I would not call it significant. What is significant, I think, is that both companies put effort into making their products waterproof and supply the performance (i.e. sporting, riding and outdoor) market rather than the fashion/automotive/furnishing market. I would say that Horween has a more traditional process, Pittards is mor 'high tech'.
What the tests show, I think, is that any leather that is not intended to be water resistant will not have these properties (is this a surprise?) - some of the horsehide samples obtained from a Continental supplier and intended for fashion clothing was among the poorest performing. If you look at the online catelogues of most bike clothing suppliers, you will see the phrase 'naked cowhide' over and over again. Well, the phrase describes leather that is not waterproof, any more than untreated cotton is waterproof. I suspect that a lot of leather apparel manufacturers are using cowhide that is intended for fashion, automotive or furnishing use for what should be protective clothing. Horsehide tends not to be made for this market, so the chances of it being treated to be water-resistant are higher. If you go to www.horween.com/tannages you will see that they list which of their leather are waterproof.
Recommendation: Make sure when buying leather clothing for motorcycle or outdoor use, that it is made from leather that has been processed to make it waterproof. In other words, take the same procautions as you would if buying outdoor clothing made from textile*. That seems to make more difference than whether it is from a horse, cow or whatever.
* I suppose that the difference is that manufacturers of textile outdoor clothing make a big thing about how they have waterproofed their garments (often with fancy names for the process and diagrams on the label etc.) but leather garment manufacturers almost never do. So, make it your business to find out.
Now (finally) I realise that this will 'cut no ice' with those who already believe that horsehide is always heavier, stiffer, tougher and all-round much better than cattlehide. That's fine. Just one last question. What type of leather are most military/hiking/shooting/sports boots made from? Are they reasonably waterproof? Are they heavy? Are they stiff?
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H.Johnson
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You are in the right area, but not quite on the target. Tanning affects the substructure of the leather (the fibres) 'cross-linking' it to make it stronger and more supple. Heavy-duty leather is re-tanned (tanned twice, often chrome tanned the first time and vegetable tanned the second). This will have the effect of making the leather less absorbent and denser.
What affects the surface most are the physical processes of splitting, glazing, buffing and finishing. This is where the surface is made smooth, if that is the case and if 'the pores are closed up' that is when it would occur. I don't think it's the open or closed pores that make leather waterproof, however. Some corrected grain fashion footwear has had the pores blocked completely, and yet it soaks up water readily!
What imparts most of the waterproofing, I think, is the oils that are put into the leather to replace the natural oils taken out by tanning ('fat-liquoring' or 'oil-drawing'. The differences between a performance outdoor leather and leather for your lounge or handbag are found here as much as in the tanning. Low performance leather will have a surface oiling, high performance leather will be heavily impregnated. Manufacturers are often reluctant to give away what makes up their oil, but basically, I guess you get what you pay for.
You're right, though. By my (almost 50 year) experience good, waterproofed cowhide is in the same bracket of water resistance as good, waterproofed horsehide. If people want to wear only horsehide for whatever reason that's up to them, but I'll continue to wear and enjoy the protection and appearance of both.
'Nuff said, I think.
What affects the surface most are the physical processes of splitting, glazing, buffing and finishing. This is where the surface is made smooth, if that is the case and if 'the pores are closed up' that is when it would occur. I don't think it's the open or closed pores that make leather waterproof, however. Some corrected grain fashion footwear has had the pores blocked completely, and yet it soaks up water readily!
What imparts most of the waterproofing, I think, is the oils that are put into the leather to replace the natural oils taken out by tanning ('fat-liquoring' or 'oil-drawing'. The differences between a performance outdoor leather and leather for your lounge or handbag are found here as much as in the tanning. Low performance leather will have a surface oiling, high performance leather will be heavily impregnated. Manufacturers are often reluctant to give away what makes up their oil, but basically, I guess you get what you pay for.
You're right, though. By my (almost 50 year) experience good, waterproofed cowhide is in the same bracket of water resistance as good, waterproofed horsehide. If people want to wear only horsehide for whatever reason that's up to them, but I'll continue to wear and enjoy the protection and appearance of both.
'Nuff said, I think.
JLStorm said:
JLStorm
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Wow, I am learning so much from this thread, Im glad I started it!
Ok, so I have never spent hours riding in the rain...I was just never that hardcore and never needed to get anywhere that bad...plus I was to afraid of wiping out. But, lets say that was my intention (of course since Im adding a fur collar the point is moot, but lets just assume that wasnt a factor) in theory, would the chrome tanned steer (or cattlehide
) and/or horse both have excellent waterproof qualities?
Ok, so I have never spent hours riding in the rain...I was just never that hardcore and never needed to get anywhere that bad...plus I was to afraid of wiping out. But, lets say that was my intention (of course since Im adding a fur collar the point is moot, but lets just assume that wasnt a factor) in theory, would the chrome tanned steer (or cattlehide
) and/or horse both have excellent waterproof qualities?
JanSolo
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The high oil and wax content of both FQHH and Steerhide (they are very like in apperance due to the same finishing technique) makes these type of leathers extremely waterproof. Choose whatever suits you best (heavy, super heavy, ultra-mega-heavy ).
).
JLStorm
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Ultra-Mega-Heavyweight....I must of missed that on Aero's website! lol
Actually, not to throw a wrench in the works here...but Id have to say the most waterproof leather Ive worn is Kangaroo! Im sure it was treated, but I have no idea with what. It was lightweight, flexible, and thin...not so good for a jacket.
Actually, not to throw a wrench in the works here...but Id have to say the most waterproof leather Ive worn is Kangaroo! Im sure it was treated, but I have no idea with what. It was lightweight, flexible, and thin...not so good for a jacket.
JLStorm
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jac said:
Dont thank me...all I did was start the thread and ask questions!
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Nice clinical stories H.Johnson.
However...I'll still stick with HH for a variety of reasons. One being it's inherent tighter grain than cow/steer...along with tanning techniques inhancing those properties. I've worn many top quality steer and HH jackets in the past almost fifty years. Premium FQHH(such as Aero's) remains obviously quite different than even "their" premium tanned and processed steer that I'm aware of. Although no hide is "waterproof"...FQHH riding jackets do provide more rain resiliency...in my view. I've been caught several times during downpours in steer MC jackets over..almost the last fifty years..and ultimately soaked to the bone. Last summer I rode several miles in one of my FQHH jackets in a "cloudBurst"...and only got soaked around the collar. Arriving home the jacket had soaked through in several areas...but not entirely soaking me. You can claim or argue that it is because of how it's finished..or prepared. My steer jackets are not naked leather..and from my experience ...there is still an obvious difference. I'll take the FQHH...or..much more often than not..a rain suit...just from years of experience...
HD
However...I'll still stick with HH for a variety of reasons. One being it's inherent tighter grain than cow/steer...along with tanning techniques inhancing those properties. I've worn many top quality steer and HH jackets in the past almost fifty years. Premium FQHH(such as Aero's) remains obviously quite different than even "their" premium tanned and processed steer that I'm aware of. Although no hide is "waterproof"...FQHH riding jackets do provide more rain resiliency...in my view. I've been caught several times during downpours in steer MC jackets over..almost the last fifty years..and ultimately soaked to the bone. Last summer I rode several miles in one of my FQHH jackets in a "cloudBurst"...and only got soaked around the collar. Arriving home the jacket had soaked through in several areas...but not entirely soaking me. You can claim or argue that it is because of how it's finished..or prepared. My steer jackets are not naked leather..and from my experience ...there is still an obvious difference. I'll take the FQHH...or..much more often than not..a rain suit...just from years of experience...
HD
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jac said:But it's still nice to have someone go to such lengths to explain their findings.
Yeah...quite an effort(however you look at it)...trying to prove a point...
HD
eClairvaux
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HoosierDaddy said:
I, for one, appreciate H.Johnsons explanation very much.
Thank you!
btw: I rode my motorcycle home in the rain last night. I wore my new Aero Café Racer and even though it was just 30 minutes, it felt like I could have been going for a long time before water would get through.
H.Johnson
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With respect, I am not trying 'to prove a point' - I am simply explaining facts based on my own experience, which I suggest is just as substantial and relevant (and potentiallyuseful to others) as your own. For what it matters, I prefer horsehide, too.
The test rig was set up some years ago at my University to try to establish whether modern 'waterproofs' (e.g. Goretex) had any functional advantage over 'traditional' waterproof textiles. It was my idea to try it on leather as part of a project when I did an 'evening class' course on leather technology at a local college.
Let's agree that you continue to believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.
My last post on the subject.
The test rig was set up some years ago at my University to try to establish whether modern 'waterproofs' (e.g. Goretex) had any functional advantage over 'traditional' waterproof textiles. It was my idea to try it on leather as part of a project when I did an 'evening class' course on leather technology at a local college.
Let's agree that you continue to believe what you believe and I'll believe what I believe.
My last post on the subject.
HoosierDaddy said:
BellyTank
I'll Lock Up
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I hope there won't be one of those
"scientist armed with facts and common sense vs ignorant, emotional opinionated hobbyist"
type non-debates that make other fora so silly.
B
T
"scientist armed with facts and common sense vs ignorant, emotional opinionated hobbyist"
type non-debates that make other fora so silly.
B
T
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Yep..I,too,acknowledge the effort. It certainly can't be an easy endeavor to master so many subjects and dominate many discussions and threads. I do have the tendacy to look at some argument as more of an insistence to portray certain positions as now undeniable and therefore "case closed" no matter what it takes to get there...rather than so easily accepting some stated claims or posted scenarios as fact. However...we all have the freedom to buy into whatever we choose to determine as factual. Supposedly..I also have that same liberty to be quite sceptical for various reasons and state that..as well. Misinformation is never anyone's friend...no matter how elaborately presented.
Emotional
Emotional
There is also the consideration that real life is not a laboratory.
Quite the contrary.
It may have been a lot of work, and while I think that much is admirable, it still has no bearing on what keeps us dry on the road.
Again, Science = Study-
no more, no less.
Reviewing what's been said, though I love my trusty old steerhide (bought new in '84)it was the most spongelike of any of my jackets. This is after mink oil, and other waterproofing applications that worked negligibly.
Even the flimsiest most worn hh was superior in it's repellent properties.
Sure doesn't sound like the 'scientific' findings.
Quite the contrary.
It may have been a lot of work, and while I think that much is admirable, it still has no bearing on what keeps us dry on the road.
Again, Science = Study-
no more, no less.
Reviewing what's been said, though I love my trusty old steerhide (bought new in '84)it was the most spongelike of any of my jackets. This is after mink oil, and other waterproofing applications that worked negligibly.
Even the flimsiest most worn hh was superior in it's repellent properties.
Sure doesn't sound like the 'scientific' findings.
JLStorm
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To continue down the horsehide vs. steerhide conversation that this thread has started, I would like to request more opinions. I am set on steerhide due to the weight and thickness, however my friend will most likely be ordering a similar jacket to mine and is trying to decide between the two leathers. Unlike many other threads on TFL, historical accuracy is not a concern here (especially not for him). So, other than the water absorbency, what other features or drawbacks does one hide have over the other? Personal opinions count here and my friend and I are just as interested in uncontested fact, as personnel opinions that may differ from one wearer to another. He has samples on the way, which is nice, but a small sample is really no match for experience actually wearing a jacket...so, lets have it. What separates on leather from the other, both good and bad??[huh]
