What Is the Allure of Japanese Leather Jackets?

[AeroFan_07]

It's not about the flaws.

There are two kinds of people in this hobby; People who like the style & buy these clothes based on the price tag and people who are truly all about vintage pieces. The second group falls into two categories but I'll get back to that.

The price-tag group doesn't want to go through all the fuss of figuring out what's what - and believe you me, there's a lot to learn - so they tend to stick to the pricey repros which are easily graded, classified and a whole less fussy and vague. Basically, pricey reproductions guarantee that you're getting quality alongside the look and that's actually very cool.

Perfectionism that unfortunately often results from the way of "modern vintage" is an adverse side-effect, a cancer of the hobby and sucks the soul out of it but that's another story altogether.

As far as the vintage folk goes, some will simply pile up on vintage jackets and collect them, while the others will want to actively wear them - but - knowing of the scarcity of truly fine vintage pieces, many people will often resort to repros in order to keep their vintage pieces intact.

I personally wouldn't feel right wearing something very rare and precious out of fear of damaging it so ideally, I'd rather wear a repro while keeping the real deal safe at home. That doesn't make much sense but obsession rarely does.

I really like what you are indicating here Monitor. Even if I do not fit any of these catagories specifically. I just like leather jackets, boots, belts, etc. I was a motorcyclist between 2007 - 2012 (all pre-FL days) and I had, prior to 2012, owned over 40 different M/C style leather jackets. Yes, my friends & family all indeed thought I was nuts.

Part of the reason I gravitated toward the Motorcycle style of jacket, even long before I actually rode a bike, was for reasons of fit. Having sleeves that actually stayed close to my hand while driving/riding was indeed a revelation to me. Something I always wrested with in high school & college as I was 6' 1" tall and (in those days) like 145 lbs. Try fitting that with a standard Large or Medium store-bought jacket. A Joke indeed. Gave a lot of laughs to the ladies I suppose looking back. LL Bean and maybe Carhartt offered Long options and that could at least help.

This is part of the reason I am, at best, cautious about "vintage" originals is that I prefer to actually wear, and use what I own. Most if not all the originals I have tried just do not fit, or if they do it's pretty awkward. The second reason is the smell. Pre-Covid I would have never described myself as a "germ-o-fobe" whatsoever, however i have always been very consious of smell and just prefer things clean overall. I have a serious aversion to smoke smell, which seems to infect a high percentage of vintage products, and these would not even be allowed in my home.

All this to say, the reproduction market does make sense to me. So one last comment -- when I first encountered Aero Leathers - at Thurston Brothers store in Seattle in 2013, I was 100% overwhelmed. I had never encountered something like that prior. I also nearly passed out when I saw the price. It took a year for me to swallow this, and that is when I bought my first of these. It is a fun, interesting hobby to be involved in but it comes with a price tag.

 

[Monitor]

Certain vintage jackets, that many repros are based on, that has not been touched upon by @Coriu is the cost associated with purchasing a vintage one. They can and do cost more than the repros do, and you are bidding against other vintage collectors.

Many reproduction jackets are not just based on a "vintage jacket from the find and deals" but are based on icons that collectors pay a large sum of money to own, that perhaps was the driving force behind the styles seen on the finds and deals. And this is another reason for this thread, there is a difference between a vintage crosszip and a J-24, and how this drives the reproduction market. To own a true Buco, or etc.

These are icons that stood out from the rest. Something about their patterns, or quality, or style for the time period that makes them desirable. Some Repro makers have collections of vintage jackets that they base their patterns on, and write books detailing their obscure history. You get to see growth and changes in the history. The arrival of the Turnpike and the change pocket as a small example. The action back, and what makers did BEFORE the action back was invented.

All good points but we mustn't forget that makers, at the end of the day, want their stuff to sell and earn money & this has been a downfall of many makers who stuck to I dunno, only a handful of styles, never adding anything new to their collection.

Even RMC had to turn from just J-24 toward other styles because once everyone began doing it, people slowly became fed up with it and began looking elsewhere. Real McCoy did a smart move by beginning to pretend they're high fashion & slapped an insane price tags on it - at least RMC UK did, I'm not sure what's happening in Japan.

That's a good question, though; Does a repro of a style that was until this point only found in a vintage form, devalue the style altogether? Or does the newly discovered popularity make it more valuable?

 

[El Marro]

This is spot on. And despite my disgust for weeb stores like S&S and much of the western culture around these brands, I do appreciate the home turf product, as well as those stores like History Preservation that actually reflect what makes the repro world so fascinating.

I too have chuckled at the overly dramatic blurbs put out by S&S to hawk their wares, sometimes it feels like they are trying to be the J. Peterman of Oakland.
I will say though that I am very happy that there is such a store and I feel lucky that it is so close to my home. Standard and Strange is the place where I got to see and handle boots from John Lofgren and Clinch in person. Where I got to check out jackets from The Real McCoys and Eastman without having to buy them first.
I can’t understand why you feel disgusted by their store, please explain.

 

[Kuro]

That's a good question, though; Does a repro of a style that was until this point only found in a vintage form, devalue the style altogether? Or does the newly discovered popularity make it more valuable?

I believe it only adds to the value.

1. Manufacturer one is a collector, and wants to reproduce what they love. This elevates the vintage market by bringing the style to the public and making them aware of it, and in turn making more people seek the original.
2. Manufacturer two wants to produce something unique, so they seek something obscure. See 1 above.
3. Manufacturer one needs a fresh new style, so they dig deep finding something unique in their collection, see number 2.

In all three instances, the reproductions bring to market unknown items that the market was not aware of unless you were a vintage collector and did your own research. Once the market becomes aware of what was once an unknown, the value goes up because more people want it.

I can not conceive of an option where the reproduction drives down the vintage item. Sure, in some cases the reproduction costs more than the vintage item, but I am not able to really define a situation where the vintage item would be reduced in value due to the reproduction.

 

[Coriu]

I am beginning to learn, that you may not be focused enough on a vintage design or detail that helps you understand what is happening with the repro market. The vintage jackets in the Finds and Deals sections represent a very large swath of leather jackets, so your statement is general in nature. But not what I want, I can not find a vintage J-31, or JH-1 that fits me, for example. (Let alone a Leathertogs...)
Again this is a general statement, making an assumption that a crosszip is a universal design (my example) that anyone can make. I think what you are missing, and the reason for your quest to learn in this thread is the various minutia of details of a brand, and the evolution of the leather jacket styles from aviation to motorcycles. To capture those details, to find that one jacket that fits your desire. You are looking at the forest when you started this thread, from my perspective and the above statement. Someone like me is looking at the bark on one tree and finding it fascinating, and currently outside of some bad fitting patterns, only the Japanese market is making the bark of the single tree I desire.

For others, in your above example of a style that is not particularly rare, perhaps they want the name brand associated with the purchase, or etc. and no other reason. There may be nothing else to understand other than how Monitor recently explained it. That is how they want to spend their money. Why does RRL exist? Why Chromehearts?

I am beginning to learn, that you may not be focused enough on a vintage design or detail that helps you understand what is happening with the repro market. The vintage jackets in the Finds and Deals sections represent a very large swath of leather jackets, so your statement is general in nature. But not what I want, I can not find a vintage J-31, or JH-1 that fits me, for example. (Let alone a Leathertogs...)



Again this is a general statement, making an assumption that a crosszip is a universal design (my example) that anyone can make. I think what you are missing, and the reason for your quest to learn in this thread is the various minutia of details of a brand, and the evolution of the leather jacket styles from aviation to motorcycles. To capture those details, to find that one jacket that fits your desire. You are looking at the forest when you started this thread, from my perspective and the above statement. Someone like me is looking at the bark on one tree and finding it fascinating, and currently outside of some bad fitting patterns, only the Japanese market is making the bark of the single tree I desire.

For others, in your above example of a style that is not particularly rare, perhaps they want the name brand associated with the purchase, or etc. and no other reason. There may be nothing else to understand other than how Monitor recently explained it. That is how they want to spend their money. Why does RRL exist? Why Chromehearts?

Thank you for your efforts to explain. I have been trying to get my arms around the Japanese market. I see some makers who, as you say, are very focused on replicating distinct, iconic jackets. My perception is that certain other makers are focused more on the leather and the tannery from which it comes...and using that as the main selling point.

I appreciate your point about the forest and the trees. I understand completely the discerning buyer who is after a very specific style/model. My perception, maybe wrong, is that some people pursuing Japanese-made jackets do not fall into this category of buyer. In other words, they are buying a jacket because it is such-and-such leather and/or it looks cool. Or maybe because there is some sort of mystique about Japanese jackets...such as the fascination Americans had with BMW's and German engineering many decades ago. It's the latter types of buyer that intrigues me...and the one who I was thinking of when I wrote the title of this thread.

 

[Monitor]

Or maybe because there is some sort of mystique about Japanese jackets...such as the fascination Americans had with BMW's and German engineering many decades ago. It's the latter type of buyer that intrigues me...and the one who I was thinking of when I wrote the title of this thread.

There's that guy, too.

 

[navetsea]

There are also many who just want longer version of a jacket style, so they can buy a size or 2 size too small and still long enough.

 

[Superfluous]

@Coriu Your posts ooze passive aggression and thinly disguised contempt. Your claimed desire to "understand" the mindset of those who purchase Japanese jackets comes across much like someone trying to understand what motivates a serial killer. Therefore, while I own several Japanese jackets, I respectfully decline to participate in your judgmental inquiry.

 

[Coriu]

I really like what you are indicating here Monitor. Even if I do not fit any of these catagories specifically. I just like leather jackets, boots, belts, etc. I was a motorcyclist between 2007 - 2012 (all pre-FL days) and I had, prior to 2012, owned over 40 different M/C style leather jackets. Yes, my friends & family all indeed thought I was nuts.

Part of the reason I gravitated toward the Motorcycle style of jacket, even long before I actually rode a bike, was for reasons of fit. Having sleeves that actually stayed close to my hand while driving/riding was indeed a revelation to me. Something I always wrested with in high school & college as I was 6' 1" tall and (in those days) like 145 lbs. Try fitting that with a standard Large or Medium store-bought jacket. A Joke indeed. Gave a lot of laughs to the ladies I suppose looking back. LL Bean and maybe Carhartt offered Long options and that could at least help.

This is part of the reason I am, at best, cautious about "vintage" originals is that I prefer to actually wear, and use what I own. Most if not all the originals I have tried just do not fit, or if they do it's pretty awkward. The second reason is the smell. Pre-Covid I would have never described myself as a "germ-o-fobe" whatsoever, however i have always been very consious of smell and just prefer things clean overall. I have a serious aversion to smoke smell, which seems to infect a high percentage of vintage products, and these would not even be allowed in my home.

All this to say, the reproduction market does make sense to me. So one last comment -- when I first encountered Aero Leathers - at Thurston Brothers store in Seattle in 2013, I was 100% overwhelmed. I had never encountered something like that prior. I also nearly passed out when I saw the price. It took a year for me to swallow this, and that is when I bought my first of these. It is a fun, interesting hobby to be involved in but it comes with a price tag.

I hear you, brother. I love the idea of vintage originals, but outside of a certain size range, it is very difficult to get things to fit properly. There are some wonderful Japanese repros out there but, some seem to be limited in size to people on the leaner end of the spectrum.

 

[Coriu]

Certain vintage jackets, that many repros are based on, that has not been touched upon by @Coriu is the cost associated with purchasing a vintage one. They can and do cost more than the repros do, and you are bidding against other vintage collectors.

T

Certain vintage jackets, that many repros are based on, that has not been touched upon by @Coriu is the cost associated with purchasing a vintage one. They can and do cost more than the repros do, and you are bidding against other vintage collectors.

Many reproduction jackets are not just based on a "vintage jacket from the find and deals" but are based on icons that collectors pay a large sum of money to own, that perhaps was the driving force behind the styles seen on the finds and deals. And this is another reason for this thread, there is a difference between a vintage crosszip and a J-24, and how this drives the reproduction market. To own a true Buco, or etc.

These are icons that stood out from the rest. Something about their patterns, or quality, or style for the time period that makes them desirable. Some Repro makers have collections of vintage jackets that they base their patterns on, and write books detailing their obscure history. You get to see growth and changes in the history. The arrival of the Turnpike and the change pocket as a small example. The action back, and what makers did BEFORE the action back was invented.

What I think I hear you saying, Kuro, is that there are R&D-related costs, ie buying original jackets, researching materials, sourcing materials, etc., that must be recovered for one to have a viable business model. That makes complete sense. Assuming these makers are producing relatively small volumes of jackets, it can add a significant cost to each jacket....thus helping me justify the price tag of a $2000 jacket.

 

[handymike]

I also have a few R&D jackets but no viable leather jacket making business.

 

[Coriu]

Here's an interesting question...Is there one or two Japanese-made jackets you would tell those newer to the hobby, "Just go ahead and buy it. You'll likely never find a real, vintage one in reasonable condition and nobody today does it better than "X" Japanese firm. And anyone trying to duplicate it in the future would be hard-pressed to do better in the future."

Some of us are trying to flatten out the learning curve to save time and money. Think back to when you started and how overwhelming it can be. As an example....I remember a thread where a rather substantial number of Loungers concurred that the current Type III below offered by Aero was about as good as it gets. It helped me come to the conclusion that this is a jacket that will likely be in my collection 10 years from now, if not forever...and, in that sense, worth buying as a new jacket.

 

[Aloysius]

Buzz Rickson’s MA-1, slender fit. (I say slender fit because it removes the extra space for fitting over a flight suit, which actually makes it more true to size for civilian wear.) Just a spectacular jacket, wearable in just about every season but summer (it’ll work as a full on winter jacket if you zip it up). Easily one of the most wearable things I own.

I’m aware Bronson makes a decent one at 1/3 the price, which I even got for a friend as a gift, but after realizing it’s a knockoff of the Rickson’s I wouldn’t again.

 

[Monitor]

Think back to when you started and how overwhelming it can be. As an example....I remember a thread where a rather substantial number of Loungers concurred that the current Type III below offered by Aero was about as good as it gets.

As far as I am concerned, that is still the case, though Vanson makes an excellent trucker jacket too and possibly Fine Creek as well, seeing how popular it is.

I know some behind-the-scenes info re. Aero's trucker which makes it a little bit more special than your run of the mill leather trucker, which as a fan of this type of jacket, I can only appreciate.

The thing with Aero is, all the jackets they've developed recently, and I'm not talking about the ones that are just remixes of details, are substantially superior to the old ones. The Indian Ranger, for instance. And this trucker.

 

[Coriu]

If folks out there want to contribute, I'll capture the results of the "survey," along the lines of "Top 5 New, Japanese-Made Jackets You Just Need to Buy Right Now." Might be interesting at some point to broaden the scope to include jackets from all makers. I would also like to, as a result of thread, have a means of "categorizing" the different Japanese makers, if that is feasible and worth the effort....as a means of helping prospective buyers of the future who may not be that familiar with the different brands.

 

[Aloysius]

And this trucker.

Doesn't this date to late 90s LVC?

 

[Monitor]

Doesn't this date to late 90s LVC?

No, that's the old version. With patch pockets. This one was made recently, some years ago. It was a complete revision and the pattern was done over 60's I think Levi's or something like that. The year could be way off but a lot of work went into it. They had this girl working on it who got every tiny detail transferred to the leather version.

It's a really impressive jacket. The one I got that was made by Ken was the most complex Aero I've ever seen.

 

[Aloysius]

No, that's the old version. With patch pockets. This one was made recently, some years ago. It was a complete revision and the pattern was done over 60's I think Levi's or something like that. The year could be way off but a lot of work went into it. They had this girl working on it who got every tiny detail transferred to the leather version.

It's a really impressive jacket. The one I got that was made by Ken was the most complex Aero I've ever seen.

I vaguely remember your thread in which you referenced some of this but did Aero ever do a write up on it, the designer girl, the denim conversion etc? I’d love to read it if so.

 

[TheBigEraser]

Buzz Rickson’s MA-1, slender fit. (I say slender fit because it removes the extra space for fitting over a flight suit, which actually makes it more true to size for civilian wear.) Just a spectacular jacket, wearable in just about every season but summer (it’ll work as a full on winter jacket if you zip it up). Easily one of the most wearable things I own.

I’m aware Bronson makes a decent one at 1/3 the price, which I even got for a friend as a gift, but after realizing it’s a knockoff of the Rickson’s I wouldn’t again.

Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 repro = quality repro
Bronson MA-1 repro = knock-off Rickson??

I don’t get it. Would you please explain?

 

[Aloysius]

Buzz Rickson’s MA-1 repro = quality repro
Bronson MA-1 repro = knock-off Rickson??

I don’t get it. Would you please explain?

Bronson's quality is good but unlike the other big name in budget mil wear (Five Star), they don't actually work off of originals. They make copies of Buzz Rickson's, Toys McCoy, etc. One of the big tells, for example, is that their MA-1 has the dimensions not of the 'actual' military MA-1 but of the William Gibson edition Rickson's.