What is it about horsehide?

[ForestForTheTrees]

Great discussion so far and thanks for all of the input. Sometimes I think that it's a bit easier to focus on the type of hide rather than the tanning process involved. I've been stuck out in a downpour while walking for a couple of miles in my steerhide jacket and it kept me remarkably dry and the leather itself was not soaked, which I would attribute primarily to the Chromexcel tanning process involved.

Interesting that goat would be mentioned as it is another great option. When I purchased my riding jacket I went with steerhide, but I was very tempted by the goatskin that Langlitz offers. I did end up with goatskin riding pants. Goat is indeed very tough yet very supple and another fine choice.

 

[Baron Kurtz]

You're absolutely right. Any kind of water-/weather- proofing is all down to the tanning.

To the original post, of why horsehide has such a mystique. There's a strange relationship apparently between man and horse - to the point where the US has some very strange laws regarding what happens to a horse (as opposed to any other animal) to the point where IIRC no horse killing for leather can occur in the US (I may have that slightly wrong, but there is something odd i the back of my mind re: US law and horse demise). Maybe that unavailability/difficult availability makes it more desirable. The price is higher, probably due to the sheer number of cows/goats/sheep etc. being destroyed every day as compared to horses. And of course, rumours of better durability/waterproofing are self sustaining, particularly after the advent of the internet.

 

[Deleted member 16736]

I've had two horsehide GW Perry 42-16175-P A-2 jackets (one russet, one seal) and an original (44) - sold them all to VLJF members.
The GW russet had seen some hot water treatment in the past and was a bit snug in the chest; I didn't get on with the seal (too dark for my taste). I needed a regular wearer and the vintage Perry was too good for daily wear.

Does the goatskin keep you as warm as the horsehide? My only concern with goat is that it won't be usable below 40 degrees. And since I only put on a jacket at 55 degree, that's not much of a range and I doubt I'd use it a lot. A Doniger A-2 is a thing of beauty, though.

 

[Worf]

Breaking in my FQHH jacket wasn't such a big deal. Just a few weeks of wearing it for a couple of hours each night while I was driving around and it was soft and comfortable. I suppose the trouble is people typically don't spend that long wearing their jackets, plus when they do they're not really doing anything in them

I concur, almost every day this fall/winter I've driven in one of my 4 HH jackets/coats. Driving makes the upper coat "break-in" amazingly fast. I also walk daily around 11:00 AM, while taking my (ahem) "Constitutional", I work my arms throwing punches occaisionally to loosen up the Horse. Of course the sight of me shadow boxing with myself might just get me a trip to the rubber room but hey... you wanna play? You gotta pay!

Worf

 

[Seb Lucas]

I like my HH Aero but I have had at least 6 goat hide jackets and for my money they are the best as they are soft, light (I don't get the heavy jacket fetish since they aren't warmer unless they have a good lining) and they wear like iron. What's not to like?

 

[tonypaj]

I have under the Christmas tree two horse hide jackets, one new one used. One for me, one for my son. There are plenty of others in the household, made of all kinds of dead animals. All used, all the time. My favorite is still the A-2 kind leather horse hide Stuart. It just feels right. Now if someone came and told me it is cow, the response would be "OK".

 

[Asienizen]

The whole "what's so great about HH?" debate is an interesting topic. I've looked into it and there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus. Plenty of people say that HH is more water/ wear resistant than cow, and plenty of people say it is essentially the same. I have a HH A2, and a jacket from buffalo hide. To compare the two, I would say the horse is more water, stain, and abrasion resistant - I did crash my motorcycle wearing it - the jacket came out better than I did. It has held up well for the past 2 years, but if someone told me that it was actually cowhide, I would just say, "Well there goes the mystique."
Frankly, the jacket is a bit heavy - my next A2 would be a mid-weight goatskin. But I'd encourage the jacket enthusiast to have owned a HH jacket at least once to see what it's like in comparison to other types.

 

[JLStorm]

Great discussion so far and thanks for all of the input. Sometimes I think that it's a bit easier to focus on the type of hide rather than the tanning process involved. I've been stuck out in a downpour while walking for a couple of miles in my steerhide jacket and it kept me remarkably dry and the leather itself was not soaked, which I would attribute primarily to the Chromexcel tanning process involved.

Interesting that goat would be mentioned as it is another great option. When I purchased my riding jacket I went with steerhide, but I was very tempted by the goatskin that Langlitz offers. I did end up with goatskin riding pants. Goat is indeed very tough yet very supple and another fine choice.

I think I recall reading several discussions that stated goat wasn't as protective for riding. Not sure if that is just because the fqhh and steer are heavier and/or thicker, or if it is false information. I've torture tested close to 15 samples of fqhh, mid weight horse, various cow weights, goat and bison with pliers screw drivers and a leatherman tool. The bison has been almost indestructible and it's very supple. I can't imagine it patinas well, but I would think for riding it would be an excellent choice unless being too supple is a drawback. Not sure on water resistance though.

 

[hpalapdog]

You're absolutely right. Any kind of water-/weather- proofing is all down to the tanning.

To the original post, of why horsehide has such a mystique. There's a strange relationship apparently between man and horse - to the point where the US has some very strange laws regarding what happens to a horse (as opposed to any other animal) to the point where IIRC no horse killing for leather can occur in the US (I may have that slightly wrong, but there is something odd i the back of my mind re: US law and horse demise). Maybe that unavailability/difficult availability makes it more desirable. The price is higher, probably due to the sheer number of cows/goats/sheep etc. being destroyed every day as compared to horses. And of course, rumours of better durability/waterproofing are self sustaining, particularly after the advent of the internet.

The mystique element seems to originate from marketing. I remember HPA (the US Eastman distributor) using the term 'mustang'. An attempt to conjure up images of wild horses roaming freely. The reality is more mundane. There are thousands of horses breed for meat and thousands in the UK going to the knackers yard after their equestrian days are over. The meat goes into pet food and the hides either into general circulation or landfill/incineration. The bones used to be ground up and made into bone china clay.
Looking at the price list of European tanneries equine hides are no more expensive than bovine. Both prices are set by the leather grading. Due to uneven thickness and marks equine tends to be cheaper than something like an unblemished calf skin. Demand seems to fluctuate. At the moment it's strong, in past periods the tanneries couldn't get rid of the stuff.

 

[hpalapdog]

The strongest leather per ounce is Kangaroo followed by goat. Goat is certainly used in racing suits.

The most important element of water proofing is the top finish. This can be a totally waterproof pvc paint right through to a non-water proof aniline coating.
Horween's chromexcel is stuffed full of fat liquors making a water resistant leather that still breaths nicely.

http://www.indiamart.com/poplon/leather-chemicals-fat-liquors.html

The fact that it's veg tanned then chrome retanned makes it durable too

http://horween.com/leathers/chromexcel/

 

[Baron Kurtz]

I was told by someone who studies horse tendon regeneration after injury that an awful lot of British horse meat goes to the French retail market, too. They can't get enough of this lovely meat, apparently. That's another question that needs asking - what does the anglo-saxon consumer have against horse meat?

There are thousands of horses breed for meat and thousands in the UK going to the knackers yard after their equestrian days are over. The meat goes into pet food and the hides either into general circulation or landfill/incineration.

 

[Rudie]

Does the goatskin keep you as warm as the horsehide? My only concern with goat is that it won't be usable below 40 degrees. And since I only put on a jacket at 55 degree, that's not much of a range and I doubt I'd use it a lot. A Doniger A-2 is a thing of beauty, though.

I've worn my goat jacket with the A-2 summer cotton lining plus a heavy wool sweater at 30°F. Very comfortable. Even rode the bicycle. The baron is right, it depends on what you wear underneath the leather.

I still think Aero's brown FQHH looks and ages the nicest. And it's pretty much waterproof. But I found it much too heavy for my liking. The Aero goat on the other hand is not waterproof and doesn't develop such a nice patina, but it's very comfy right out of the box. Still very substantial, but lighter and not as stiff. A great hide. Now if there was a hide that looks like the brown FQHH and wears like goat I'd be very tempted to buy me a second jacket. Wasn't there something called "shaved FQHH" that is supposed to be just that?

 

[hpalapdog]

That's another question that needs asking - what does the anglo-saxon consumer have against horse meat?

I wouldn't be surprised if mechanically separated meat slurry from eastern Europe and South America contains horse. This finds it's way into cheap pasties etc. here.

I seem to remember my parents paying the knackers man for removal for my old childhood pony

 

[resortes805]

Maybe horsehide is perceived as more authentic when it comes to A2 jackets and others.

For vintage clothing enthusiasts, horsehide, like heavy drapey gabardine of the 1940s or the rayon used to make aloha shirts of the same era, is not readily available and thus has become symbolic of a bygone era for some.

 

[JLStorm]

The strongest leather per ounce is Kangaroo followed by goat. Goat is certainly used in racing suits.

The most important element of water proofing is the top finish. This can be a totally waterproof pvc paint right through to a non-water proof aniline coating.
Horween's chromexcel is stuffed full of fat liquors making a water resistant leather that still breaths nicely.

http://www.indiamart.com/poplon/leather-chemicals-fat-liquors.html

The fact that it's veg tanned then chrome retanned makes it durable too

http://horween.com/leathers/chromexcel/

I didn't know goat was used in racing suits. Learn something new every day on here. I've had kangaroo gloves which were great for dexterity, but were too thin to be warm (more due to lack of insulation than anything else I suppose). Do they make jackets / clothing from kangaroo? I don't recall seeing it in anything other than shoes and gloves.

I've worn my goat jacket with the A-2 summer cotton lining plus a heavy wool sweater at 30°F. Very comfortable. Even rode the bicycle. The baron is right, it depends on what you wear underneath the leather.

I still think Aero's brown FQHH looks and ages the nicest. And it's pretty much waterproof. But I found it much too heavy for my liking. The Aero goat on the other hand is not waterproof and doesn't develop such a nice patina, but it's very comfy right out of the box. Still very substantial, but lighter and not as stiff. A great hide. Now if there was a hide that looks like the brown FQHH and wears like goat I'd be very tempted to buy me a second jacket. Wasn't there something called "shaved FQHH" that is supposed to be just that?

I'd agree that the FQHH I've seen from Aero looks the nicest as it ages. The patina it gets seems much more impressive than any of the other hides I've seen or owned.

 

[Seb Lucas]

Yeah, Kangaroo makes a great bike jacket. It's very like the Norween FQHH in terms of thickness and density. But it takes even more to break in. I had a jacket I wore often over 15 years that refused to break in. These days over here, kanga leather is sold off to overseas companies so it is hard to get. I had a long half-belt in kanga which I donated to a thriftstore last year - I found it too stiff. I understand that kanga is the most abrasion resistant leather you can get - tougher than HH or steer.

 

[gtdean48]

Same as in the States = what I call "noble domestic animal syndrome"...some places eat dog meat too....cattle & other animals don't measure up so they are okay to eat...

OT = I bought a horsehide belt & really love it. That made me want a horsehide jacket...I have a few steerhide jackets & the horsehide is remarkably different to me...

I was told by someone who studies horse tendon regeneration after injury that an awful lot of British horse meat goes to the French retail market, too. They can't get enough of this lovely meat, apparently. That's another question that needs asking - what does the anglo-saxon consumer have against horse meat?

 

[Fanch]

My preference for upper leather on my western cowboy boots is kangaroo, and I have found that the kangaroo leather used for the uppers on my western boots is very supple, even more so than kid skin.

Both pair are ostrich bottoms and kangaroo uppers. The ostrich skin is incredibly supple and comfortable but, unlike FQHH, absorbs water like a sponge. I have considered ordering a pair of shell cordovan (horse) western boots from J.B. Hill Boot Company in El Paso, Texas, but have not as yet gotten around to it.

 

[JLStorm]

Yeah, Kangaroo makes a great bike jacket. It's very like the Norween FQHH in terms of thickness and density. But it takes even more to break in. I had a jacket I wore often over 15 years that refused to break in. These days over here, kanga leather is sold off to overseas companies so it is hard to get. I had a long half-belt in kanga which I donated to a thriftstore last year - I found it too stiff. I understand that kanga is the most abrasion resistant leather you can get - tougher than HH or steer.

Thats what I had heard about kangaroo boots. I have a pair, not the best quality I'm sure (irish setter I think) and they have held up quite well for several years of mud, snow, chores, and scrapes against rocks and god knows what else. I like that they are thin and light, but tough. I don't mind heavy red wing logger boots when I need the support and toe protection, but its nice to have sneaker weight boots on for comfortable walks, etc.

 

[tommygun]

For someone like myself, that got into quality jackets in the last few years, Most of what you read or hear always went to horsehide as THE quality jacket. I'm not saying that is the case, just what a lot of companies make you believe. Tough, waterproof etc.., And they are normally a little more expensive, giving the "feeling" of the the best. I Think it is actually pretty comfortable once it is broken in, and always seems to look nice. Just my $.02