What exactly defines an aviator jacket

[TartuWolf]

@Rgcards
To me that's much more of a d pocket "cafecto" than an aviator because of the collar, action back and zipped sleeves. But yeah, total hybrid.

 

[Tom71]

Himel Nipissing Rider.

A book that‘s Not meant to be judged by its cover.

No epaulettes, half-belt back, no snaps to hold the collar down. Yet Himel calls it ‘a classic and original motorcycle jacket’.
I don’t really mind one way or the other, but I’ve always thought its vibes are more aviator than rider.

 

[El Marro]

In general, motorycle jackets will often have snap passants (what people usually call epaulets)

this intrigued me when I read it so I detoured into a quick Google search for “snap passant”. I found nothing at all about jackets and a whole lot about chess. I’m going to suggest that you stick to using the word epaulet because it is one that everyone here understands and accepts.

 

[rogueclimber]

this intrigued me when I read it so I detoured into a quick Google search for “snap passant”. I found nothing at all about jackets and a whole lot about chess. I’m going to suggest that you stick to using the word epaulet because it is one that everyone here understands and accepts.

And you sent me off down the rabbit hole LOL


The flap of cloth on top of a military shirt shoulder is called an "epaulet" (pronounced eh-puh-let). It's essentially a decorative shoulder piece that often displays rank insignia on military uniforms.

Key points about epaulets:

• Origin:
  The word "epaulet" comes from the French word "épaule" which means "shoulder".
  
  
• Function:
  Epaulets can be used to identify a soldier's rank, sometimes with additional decorations or badges attached

 

[dudewuttheheck]

And you sent me off down the rabbit hole LOL


The flap of cloth on top of a military shirt shoulder is called an "epaulet" (pronounced eh-puh-let). It's essentially a decorative shoulder piece that often displays rank insignia on military uniforms.

Key points about epaulets:

• Origin:
  The word "epaulet" comes from the French word "épaule" which means "shoulder".
  
  
• Function:
  Epaulets can be used to identify a soldier's rank, sometimes with additional decorations or badges attached

Exactly. Passants are the pieces of fabric or in this case leather that hold the epaulets on.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

this intrigued me when I read it so I detoured into a quick Google search for “snap passant”. I found nothing at all about jackets and a whole lot about chess. I’m going to suggest that you stick to using the word epaulet because it is one that everyone here understands and accepts.

Google isn't exactly the arbiter of correct information tbh. But I do usually clarify both words.

 

[El Marro]

Google isn't exactly the arbiter of correct information tbh. But I do usually clarify both words.

I agree that with Google you are often just as likely to find an incorrect answer as you are the correct one. But when nothing at all pops up related to jackets, then I think it Is time to consider using a more commonly understood word.
I am not usually one to get into this kind of silly semantic argument, and I hope you know that it is not anything personal Jake. I am a big fan of yours and I love to see your posts here and on Instagram.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

I agree that with Google you are often just as likely to find an incorrect answer as you are the correct one. But when nothing at all pops up related to jackets, then I think it Is time to consider using a more commonly understood word.
I am not usually one to get into this kind of silly semantic argument, and I hope you know that it is not anything personal Jake. I am a big fan of yours and I love to see your posts here and on Instagram.

Oh of course I know it's not personal, but I appreciate you saying so anyway. I go back and forth on it because I'm annoyed that we collectively use the wrong term, but as you said, basically nobody knows that it's wrong so at this point, it's almost become the correct term.

To prove your point further, the ads for my Topline jacket from 1940 and 41 use the term "epaulet" as well instead of passant, so apparently the "wrong" term has been the collectively used word for over 80 years!

 

[Tom71]

Oh of course I know it's not personal, but I appreciate you saying so anyway. I go back and forth on it because I'm annoyed that we collectively use the wrong term, but as you said, basically nobody knows that it's wrong so at this point, it's almost become the correct term.

To prove your point further, the ads for my Topline jacket from 1940 and 41 use the term "epaulet" as well instead of passant, so apparently the "wrong" term has been the collectively used word for over 80 years!

Jake, I think your to harsh on the use of former terms of art.

You are right of course about the technical term (the passant or shoulder strap HOLDING the epaulette), but I feel the colloquial term (any shoulder strap being called epaulette) is as valid today.

The reason for the development of the later is the practice to fix signs of rank not on a separate epaulette but directly on the strap/passant by a pin etc.

I am a stickler for correct terminology, but I also believe that language needs to be inclusive. Thus, a term used by a majority in a certain way kind of earns the right to be understood that way too.

 

[dudewuttheheck]

Jake, I think your to harsh on the use of former terms of art.

You are right of course about the technical term (the passant or shoulder strap HOLDING the epaulette), but I feel the colloquial term (any shoulder strap being called epaulette) is as valid today.

The reason for the development of the later is the practice to fix signs of rank not on a separate epaulette but directly on the strap/passant by a pin etc.

I am a stickler for correct terminology, but I also believe that language needs to be inclusive. Thus, a term used by a majority in a certain way kind of earns the right to be understood that way too.

Yeah thats a fair point. It's not something I like, but I can't say you're wrong.

 

[Canuck Panda]

Another example of what I think can be both is the Beck 333/444. It is a motorcycle jacket for sure but also marketed towards the non moto crowd, and I think it's such a great design it can be either or.

The later 999 is only moto jacket to me no aviatior vibes at all for some reason. I associate this type of styling with the Brando style moto jackets, and then there is nothing aviator about it for me,

 

[photo2u]

Aviator style

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Love those Missions! They have to be related to Californian.

 

[photo2u]

To me, it just looks more like a stripped down/muted version of a cross-zip M/C jacket:
No epaulets, no zips on sleeve ends, no visible snaps on collar/lapels, inclusion of handwarmers

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In my view, you picked one of the best designs and makers to make your point. Personally, the so-called aviator's name was just a marketing name for the jacket due to the popular aviation industry and it's advances. The way I see the "aviator" look is with the use of more flexible leathers such as goat, Cape skin, pony HH and SH. additionally, super flexible back design with a front pocket in the left or right and sometimes a "D" style pocket with lots of French seams used during the 30s. I have seen an original HD labeled aviator type. RMC later reproduced it in a killer way that was sold out before I had a chance to buy one. I own several aviators 2-West Ride, Sheeley Brothers, Norshoor,RL. Most I got from fine members of this forum. The best reproduction in my view is the Sheeley, followed by Norshoor.

 

[tmitchell59]

Love those Missions! They have to be related to Californian.

This is from the 1944 directory, San Francisco. The Mission Jacket was dated 1938.

 

[tmitchell59]

In my view, you picked one of the best designs and makers to make your point. Personally, the so-called aviator's name was just a marketing name for the jacket due to the popular aviation industry and it's advances. The way I see the "aviator" look is with the use of more flexible leathers such as goat, Cape skin, pony HH and SH. additionally, super flexible back design with a front pocket in the left or right and sometimes a "D" style pocket with lots of French seams used during the 30s. I have seen an original HD labeled aviator type. RMC later reproduced it in a killer way that was sold out before I had a chance to buy one. I own several aviators 2-West Ride, Sheeley Brothers, Norshoor,RL. Most I got from fine members of this forum. The best reproduction in my view is the Sheeley, followed by Norshoor.


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Here is the "Escape from NY" jacket by California Sportswear

 

[photo2u]

Here is the "Escape from NY" jacket by California Sportswear

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Nothing beats an original. However, your Duke is not bad...

 

[tmitchell59]

Nothing beats an original. However, your Duke is not bad...

The Bill Kelso Duke is a good example of recreating an original Aviator design. Note the BK has the Monarch label. This jacket was produced several years ago. It is a duplicate of the original California Sportswear jacket.

The Victory horsehide remains unique in my closet. Nothing like it.