AmateisGal
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What are you Writing?
- Thread starter MikeKardec
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Congratulations - that is fantastic.
MikeKardec
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Benz, that's excellent! I find it kind of disturbing that not only do I tend to get a charge out of a sale but it releases additional creativity that was lurking somewhere. I always wonder where it came from and why I didn't have it at my finger tips EARLIER!
Congratulations!
Congratulations!
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Benzadmiral
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Thank you, all,
Yes, an acceptance sparks not only creativity but the will to submit other pieces elsewhere. I've sent a short story to another online anthology -- and submitted a query for a mystery novel as well to Random House Alibi, RH's digital imprint.
Yes, an acceptance sparks not only creativity but the will to submit other pieces elsewhere. I've sent a short story to another online anthology -- and submitted a query for a mystery novel as well to Random House Alibi, RH's digital imprint.
Formeruser012523
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Congrats, Benz! 
MikeKardec
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Go for it! But be sure you read the Alibi contract carefully. It is a LOT better than it used to be but it still does not pay the up to 70% royalty that Kindle does ... they do offer better service and it doesn't contain that wacky, 'we can change our terms' clause that Kindle had the last time I looked (several years ago). I really doubt that they will change their terms anytime soon because of the possible outcry but they will offer new programs that incentivize writers to accept different terms. Anyway, it's always good to bone up on all the fine print, just so you know what's up. RH does, however, do some of the work for you.
Digital is the paperback of this century. Books written for Kindle (through the Amazon self publishing program) sell as much at Amazon as all the big four publishers combined. Low price is the key. As I understand it the publisher's deals with book stores require a minimum price for Digital that is not too far from the paperback. This is so the book stores are not put out of business. If a book is published as Digital only the price can be lower and that puts you in a market where people are more willing to experiment with what they buy. Companies like RH have imprints like Alibi so that they price well below the paperback if the need to, though I have no idea how well they are taking advantage of the opportunity.
Since the beginning of time the big publishers have thought of the bookstores as "their customers" and paid little attention to the actual readers. The Digital imprints are their first foray into taking the public seriously. I think they are a good bet because they have a foot in both worlds and some accumulated knowledge (some, they are no longer good at retaining wise old book people) BUT there is still a lot to be learned about the Digital markets so don't expect them to know everything.
Let us know what happens and Good Luck!
Benzadmiral
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If (big "if") RH accepts the ms. and sends a contract, I'd presume I can find an agent to look it over for me and explain anything I don't understand.
If, too, "digital is the paperback of this century," then I'd be in very good company. Many of my favorite crime and SF authors had their novels appear first, or almost exclusively, in paperback -- John D. Macdonald and Donald Hamilton with Gold Medal Books, for example.
MikeKardec
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The contract probably won't be complete gibberish, I doubt you'll have much trouble if you have to go through it on your own or with an editor from RH ... but digital contracts are different from one and other and it's good to know the differences between them.
Gold Medal was the granddaddy of the Paperback Originals. They were breaking new ground when others were sitting on their hands!
MikeKardec
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It turns out I will NOT have a book coming out this fall. The contracts STILL aren't done and the long-lead promotion opportunities need four months to come into play.
I can't say I'm too disappointed. I was very nervous about the lack of bandwidth the election is causing and that will only get worse. Having a book come out in November just seems suicidal now.
So now it's finish the contracts and start working toward a Father's Day or X-mass season release for next year. I can't tell if I feel sad or like I lucked out ...
I can't say I'm too disappointed. I was very nervous about the lack of bandwidth the election is causing and that will only get worse. Having a book come out in November just seems suicidal now.
So now it's finish the contracts and start working toward a Father's Day or X-mass season release for next year. I can't tell if I feel sad or like I lucked out ...
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Well, it's more editing time, right?
AmateisGal
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I think it's a good thing not to have a book come out in November. This year's election will be sucking up ALL the media's time. Of course, people will also be looking for ways to avoid the election news and will want to read books!
AmateisGal
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I'm still hammering away at the novel. I've discovered, though, that if I take even one day off from working on it because I get sucked into politics (which I hate, but this year, it's hard to avoid), then I lose my rhythm. I may just have to do an entire media blackout this weekend and get a good chunk done.
MikeKardec
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I think it's a good thing not to have a book come out in November. This year's election will be sucking up ALL the media's time. Of course, people will also be looking for ways to avoid the election news and will want to read books!
It's a mixed bag ... and a shame because we were completely ready to go. But we're still fighting over not so minor details about the overall relationship rather than publication of the books themselves. The problem is if we went ahead without having everything finished we'd lose all our leverage. It's humbling, 10 years ago this would all have been managed with a 2 hour meeting, now it takes 16 months of dysfunctional wheeling and dealing!
That said I can take my time preparing and start planning what's next.
MikeKardec
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From some notes I made when teaching a class at Colorado College (these are interesting but I'm not sure I'd deal with the subject the same way today):
The Writer’s Contract with the Audience –
The audience has a real life that they are living. That is the subject that is important to them. If you interrupt their lives to tell them something, the interruption had better be worth changing the subject. A story is a transaction between the writer and the audience. They agree to pay to listen to your story, but you must make it worth their while.
The audience needs to believe that they will continue to be interested. Structure promises them that their interest will be rewarded. It suggests, in a time honored fashion, that the story is going somewhere.
Dramatic construction, or story structure, has some similarities to writing a geometrical proof or a formal scientific experiment. A certain question is asked and then everything that is included is part of arriving at the conclusion. If it is done correctly, like a proof in geometry, there is an order in which events occur that is the perfect organization of cause and effect. You need to choose the right moment to establish an issue, and then find the correct order of priority to deliver the information that will “prove” your story.
The Contract Fulfilled by Thematic Material –
Though there may be many “themes,” the Master Theme is the thing that gives the story meaning. Master Theme is what the story is about. When you, as a writer, break into the audience’s lives and change the subject from their concerns to your story … this is what they will judge to decide if it was worth the interruption. If the Master Theme is something that you can make the audience care about, they will accept your art and be satisfied. If they are not satisfied, if they feel that they have been interrupted for nothing, they will say the two deadliest words in art or entertainment, “So what?”
If theme is what the story is about, Plot is what happens in the story, the events.
The characters are defined by what they do; the actions they take. What the characters do creates the events of the plot.
Some call Master Theme “The Organizing Principle” and that is a very good description or label. Master Theme is there so that the story has an excuse to be told … when it has been “proven” the story is over. It does not need to be something highly intellectual or hard to grasp. The best themes are universal human truths; the lessons of life that we are constantly relearning because, regardless of their simplicity, their interactions with our lives, our emotions, our thoughts are complicated … these are the things that make us human.
Besides giving meaning to the events told in your story, Master Theme is also a practical tool that can help you in the day to day process or writing. When you don’t know what to do next all you need to do is ask yourself how do I serve the Master Theme? Does this scene need to show something that comments on it? Do I merely need to get on to scenes that serve it or set it up better?
Master Theme needs to be expressed simply but not without some detail … if it is going to be a tool that helps you write your story then the more self explanatory it is the better. As a theme “Coming of Age” is useless as a tool for writing. It is so vague that when you try to write a scene or a story about it you don’t know where to start.
“Learning to be your own person among your peers,” is better. It tells you what the story is about in usable, concrete terms and each moment of your story could be defined through the lens of your character’s learning to be himself/herself among his/her peers. Trying to figure out if a scene is on track by asking yourself if it does anything to further the idea of your character’s “Coming of Age” is too indefinite. “Learning to be your own person among your peers and still retain your friendships” might be too complete in that it suggests a particular outcome. “Learning to be your own person among your peers and still retain the friendships that matter to you” gives you back the flexibility different kinds of stories but takes away the firmest version of the motivation or goal of retaining friendships. “Learning to be your own person among you peers and still retaining your friendships” might actually be the best as long as you can let your characters to fail somewhat in this pursuit in order to discover which friendships are real.
So Themes or Organizing Principles can get more specific but after a certain point the benefits will begin to diminish … it should be a complete enough idea to let you get a handle on it and to see how it applies to various situations but not so in depth that it can’t apply to most, if not all of the issues in your story.
Though you should have some idea what your Master Theme is when you are starting out it is important to know that very often it is discovered during the process of writing the story. You might start writing without knowing what it is but it’s a guarantee you won’t be done writing until you figure it out. Very often careful study of your early drafts will show you what the Master Theme should or could be … be willing to learn from your story.
We are all afraid of this and the time and energy it takes. Deal with it; there is no bravery without fear.
An aside: Be willing to learn from your story in all ways. Sometimes they do have a mind of their own and, like children, you do not have to give in to stories but it doesn’t hurt to listen.
Master Theme is the question that the story asks. It is the experiment. It is the discovery that the audience makes at the end of their journey through the story. It is often associated with the development of the protagonist’s character.
Structure presents certain aspects of the protagonist’s life, challenges him or her with a series of tests or adventures of increasing stakes, and then forces the protagonist to prove himself/herself to have evolved in some way. Structure promises the audience that the theme will be paid off and it will be worth their while.
The Writer’s Contract with the Audience –
The audience has a real life that they are living. That is the subject that is important to them. If you interrupt their lives to tell them something, the interruption had better be worth changing the subject. A story is a transaction between the writer and the audience. They agree to pay to listen to your story, but you must make it worth their while.
The audience needs to believe that they will continue to be interested. Structure promises them that their interest will be rewarded. It suggests, in a time honored fashion, that the story is going somewhere.
Dramatic construction, or story structure, has some similarities to writing a geometrical proof or a formal scientific experiment. A certain question is asked and then everything that is included is part of arriving at the conclusion. If it is done correctly, like a proof in geometry, there is an order in which events occur that is the perfect organization of cause and effect. You need to choose the right moment to establish an issue, and then find the correct order of priority to deliver the information that will “prove” your story.
The Contract Fulfilled by Thematic Material –
Though there may be many “themes,” the Master Theme is the thing that gives the story meaning. Master Theme is what the story is about. When you, as a writer, break into the audience’s lives and change the subject from their concerns to your story … this is what they will judge to decide if it was worth the interruption. If the Master Theme is something that you can make the audience care about, they will accept your art and be satisfied. If they are not satisfied, if they feel that they have been interrupted for nothing, they will say the two deadliest words in art or entertainment, “So what?”
If theme is what the story is about, Plot is what happens in the story, the events.
The characters are defined by what they do; the actions they take. What the characters do creates the events of the plot.
Some call Master Theme “The Organizing Principle” and that is a very good description or label. Master Theme is there so that the story has an excuse to be told … when it has been “proven” the story is over. It does not need to be something highly intellectual or hard to grasp. The best themes are universal human truths; the lessons of life that we are constantly relearning because, regardless of their simplicity, their interactions with our lives, our emotions, our thoughts are complicated … these are the things that make us human.
Besides giving meaning to the events told in your story, Master Theme is also a practical tool that can help you in the day to day process or writing. When you don’t know what to do next all you need to do is ask yourself how do I serve the Master Theme? Does this scene need to show something that comments on it? Do I merely need to get on to scenes that serve it or set it up better?
Master Theme needs to be expressed simply but not without some detail … if it is going to be a tool that helps you write your story then the more self explanatory it is the better. As a theme “Coming of Age” is useless as a tool for writing. It is so vague that when you try to write a scene or a story about it you don’t know where to start.
“Learning to be your own person among your peers,” is better. It tells you what the story is about in usable, concrete terms and each moment of your story could be defined through the lens of your character’s learning to be himself/herself among his/her peers. Trying to figure out if a scene is on track by asking yourself if it does anything to further the idea of your character’s “Coming of Age” is too indefinite. “Learning to be your own person among your peers and still retain your friendships” might be too complete in that it suggests a particular outcome. “Learning to be your own person among your peers and still retain the friendships that matter to you” gives you back the flexibility different kinds of stories but takes away the firmest version of the motivation or goal of retaining friendships. “Learning to be your own person among you peers and still retaining your friendships” might actually be the best as long as you can let your characters to fail somewhat in this pursuit in order to discover which friendships are real.
So Themes or Organizing Principles can get more specific but after a certain point the benefits will begin to diminish … it should be a complete enough idea to let you get a handle on it and to see how it applies to various situations but not so in depth that it can’t apply to most, if not all of the issues in your story.
Though you should have some idea what your Master Theme is when you are starting out it is important to know that very often it is discovered during the process of writing the story. You might start writing without knowing what it is but it’s a guarantee you won’t be done writing until you figure it out. Very often careful study of your early drafts will show you what the Master Theme should or could be … be willing to learn from your story.
We are all afraid of this and the time and energy it takes. Deal with it; there is no bravery without fear.
An aside: Be willing to learn from your story in all ways. Sometimes they do have a mind of their own and, like children, you do not have to give in to stories but it doesn’t hurt to listen.
Master Theme is the question that the story asks. It is the experiment. It is the discovery that the audience makes at the end of their journey through the story. It is often associated with the development of the protagonist’s character.
Structure presents certain aspects of the protagonist’s life, challenges him or her with a series of tests or adventures of increasing stakes, and then forces the protagonist to prove himself/herself to have evolved in some way. Structure promises the audience that the theme will be paid off and it will be worth their while.
AmateisGal
I'll Lock Up
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Mike, this is excellent. Some wonderful nuggets of wisdom here.
I love this line: Be willing to learn from your story in all ways. Sometimes they do have a mind of their own and, like children, you do not have to give in to stories but it doesn’t hurt to listen.
I love this line: Be willing to learn from your story in all ways. Sometimes they do have a mind of their own and, like children, you do not have to give in to stories but it doesn’t hurt to listen.
MikeKardec
One Too Many
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This may be controversial but ... A great example of avoiding the "So what?" reaction is Raiders of the Lost Ark. There's a lot of running around but little meaning, little resonance. Basically, it says nothing about anything (my opinion only ... and I love the film) but it is absolutely SAVED by it's final shot. The ark being lost yet again as the "top men" order it stowed away deep in the stasis field of a government inefficiency and incompetence storage location. The theme of the film is: All that crazy adventure and action and it is "lost again." Or, if you really want to give it the benefit of the doubt: The ark has true mystical powers, the most important of which is to disappear ...
It's not much of a message but it is astoundingly effective, simply because it was such a wild ride. The contract was fulfilled.
A joke, provided it is the least bit funny, is always an example of perfect story structure. It has no choice, it cannot be funny without it. The "Lost Ark" at the end of the film (especially one lost by "top men") is a great punchline.
It's not much of a message but it is astoundingly effective, simply because it was such a wild ride. The contract was fulfilled.
A joke, provided it is the least bit funny, is always an example of perfect story structure. It has no choice, it cannot be funny without it. The "Lost Ark" at the end of the film (especially one lost by "top men") is a great punchline.
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^^^ I see a slightly different angle on that movie. The Ark is a muscular Hitchcock MacGuffin - yeah, it's a big metaphysical or cosmic deal or something, but in the end, that's not what most in the audience really cared about. The real excitement and the real emotional commitment from the audience is to the characters' commitment to the chase, to each other, their bonds, their enemies, their foibles, their ups and downs throughout.
As you said, "it is astoundingly effective, simply because it was such a wild ride." Sure, the "contract was fulfilled," but the Ark or any reasonable MacGuffin would have fulfilled it as the audience really just cared about the ride, all the MacGuffin had to do was not make them feel duped.
As you said, "it is astoundingly effective, simply because it was such a wild ride." Sure, the "contract was fulfilled," but the Ark or any reasonable MacGuffin would have fulfilled it as the audience really just cared about the ride, all the MacGuffin had to do was not make them feel duped.
MikeKardec
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I wasn't really talking about it as MacGuffin or not, just the fact that it's not a story (in my hypothesis, others can have any opinion they fancy) until you have a punchline ... a worthwhile punchline being the thing that gives you the excuse to break into the audience's life and interrupt them with your story.
I'm not particularly bothered by The Big Bang Theory's take on Raiders (http://whatculture.com/tv/big-bang-theory-ruined-indiana-jones-everyone or http://scifi.stackexchange.com/ques...affect-the-outcome-of-raiders-of-the-lost-ark) but I still feel like a story fails on some level (and risks a "So what?") if it doesn't have a separate Plot (what happens in the story) and Theme (what the story is about). I don't get much of a sense in Raiders of it being "about" anything other than the superficial Plot ... until that brilliant save at the end. I love the film, and would have loved it without the last scene but DEFINITELY would have felt unfulfilled and "So whattie" without the last scene. If you really want to get extreme I guess you could say that it was a fun movie about nothing ... and then they made that the point! All that ... for nothing. And a nothing created by the kings of nothing, the US government and it's ideas of secrecy.
As one of the links above roughly says: If they'd just let the ark go to Berlin maybe it would have melted the Fuehrer's face along with a bunch of other Nazi scumbags. I mean, really, why have an Ark if it can't save the Jews?
All that is really beside the point; just me having some fun and playing Devil's Advocate. The real point is that (in my opinion) for a story to fulfill it's contract with the audience, for it to not waste our time, it has to say something other than 'this list of events happened.' It needs to offer some form of commentary ON the list of events. Raiders is a GREAT example because it does so in such an easily seen way. The last shot is the ultimate pay off for the story, especially a story of such hair raising daring do!
A joke with out a punchline is nothing ... same with a story (though it may be better disguised) and it's Theme.
At the end of the day Plot is the mechanism of uncovering, discovering, displaying, Theme.
Last edited:
MikeKardec
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I've had a couple of wild days ... in my own solitary way:
I was partway through updating my Master List of structural theories when I started feeling bad about some failings in a piece I wrote and produced as both a film and an audio drama. I knew I had under served the audience in a particular area (the first third) drawing out the setting up of the situation to the point of near dullness. On the film I had a good deal of help creating this problem from 1) the powers that be who constantly changed aspects of the story, 2) the fact that network movies must have 7 or 8 acts and 3) the typical (though always unnecessary) confusion of production. On the audio I was utterly in control but I excused myself from worrying about the issue because I was required by contract to make the show LONG (180 minutes) and taking the time to establish every detail on the first CD made things the perfect length for a great transition for the change over from CD 1 to CD 2.
All EXCUSES!
Now I'm trying to learn from my mistakes. The first lesson was that I probably wouldn't have had to shorten the first third of the story, as I had thought (though that wouldn't have hurt) it just meant that, in the audio (which I rewrote from my film script) I really shouldn't have geeked out about establishing every story detail. If I had found a way to up the stakes/tension early on it would all have been better. The audio script DOES increase the tension and mystery ... but in almost exact proportion to it's added length, making it virtually no improvement.
Anyway, the great structure theory project was able to shine a lot of light on how and where I screwed up and possibly (I'm NOT rewriting this damn thing again to find out!) how to fix it. At the same time, and this is the important part, it showed me very clearly how simplistic and unsatisfying the story would have been if I had just assembled it "by the numbers" according to one of those screenplay structure templates.
"Working with" structure guidelines is TERRIBLY important. But unless you really know what you are doing, taking them too seriously can be DEATH to creativity and depth. The advanced ones are best used in the rewrite phase and then must be considered judiciously. Far, far, FAR too often these structure models have been created by applying them to stories after the fact and then fudging aspects of the stories that are being examined so that they fit the model. They are an interesting tool, and you are wandering blind on a savanna populated by lions and elephants if you don't know them, but they are DANGEROUS if you take them too seriously. Especially if you take them too seriously too seriously too early in the process.
I'm hoping that a layering of a number of structure theories, plus finding an order in which to work from simple models to the more complex ones, depending on where in my writing process I am, will create something that advises rather than strangles the process.
Plowing ahead ...
I was partway through updating my Master List of structural theories when I started feeling bad about some failings in a piece I wrote and produced as both a film and an audio drama. I knew I had under served the audience in a particular area (the first third) drawing out the setting up of the situation to the point of near dullness. On the film I had a good deal of help creating this problem from 1) the powers that be who constantly changed aspects of the story, 2) the fact that network movies must have 7 or 8 acts and 3) the typical (though always unnecessary) confusion of production. On the audio I was utterly in control but I excused myself from worrying about the issue because I was required by contract to make the show LONG (180 minutes) and taking the time to establish every detail on the first CD made things the perfect length for a great transition for the change over from CD 1 to CD 2.
All EXCUSES!
Now I'm trying to learn from my mistakes. The first lesson was that I probably wouldn't have had to shorten the first third of the story, as I had thought (though that wouldn't have hurt) it just meant that, in the audio (which I rewrote from my film script) I really shouldn't have geeked out about establishing every story detail. If I had found a way to up the stakes/tension early on it would all have been better. The audio script DOES increase the tension and mystery ... but in almost exact proportion to it's added length, making it virtually no improvement.
Anyway, the great structure theory project was able to shine a lot of light on how and where I screwed up and possibly (I'm NOT rewriting this damn thing again to find out!) how to fix it. At the same time, and this is the important part, it showed me very clearly how simplistic and unsatisfying the story would have been if I had just assembled it "by the numbers" according to one of those screenplay structure templates.
"Working with" structure guidelines is TERRIBLY important. But unless you really know what you are doing, taking them too seriously can be DEATH to creativity and depth. The advanced ones are best used in the rewrite phase and then must be considered judiciously. Far, far, FAR too often these structure models have been created by applying them to stories after the fact and then fudging aspects of the stories that are being examined so that they fit the model. They are an interesting tool, and you are wandering blind on a savanna populated by lions and elephants if you don't know them, but they are DANGEROUS if you take them too seriously. Especially if you take them too seriously too seriously too early in the process.
I'm hoping that a layering of a number of structure theories, plus finding an order in which to work from simple models to the more complex ones, depending on where in my writing process I am, will create something that advises rather than strangles the process.
Plowing ahead ...
AmateisGal
I'll Lock Up
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I told my agent I would have my novel to her by the end of September. So, that means I have one month to finish writing it (I've got a synopsis so I know where I'm going) and then one month to edit it. I hope I can do this. But I really think I can.
