What Are You Reading

[Fading Fast]

I finished reading, "Revivals, Awakenings, and Reform", by the late, William G. McLoughlin. My next will be, "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand.

Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" or any Ayn Rand before? If not, I'm curious as to what put it on your radar?

 

[Big J]

Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" or any Ayn Rand before? If not, I'm curious as to what put it on your radar?

I read Atlas Shrugged a couple of years ago (I'd always been put off by the size of the damn thing).
I really enjoyed it as a kind of retro-alternate history sci-fi, although Rand's writing style is kind of clumsy. She writes villains that annoy you very well (everyone hates a weasel, and everyone hates petty people), which makes it easy to sympathize with her badly written 'heroes'.
I disagree with some of her ideas whilst agreeing with others, but thought the ending

*spoiler alert*

where John Galt tells them how to fix the torture machine they are using on him, for me, exactly described a certain kind of spiteful pettiness that I believe is one of the most serious problems maybe every society has.

 

[Fading Fast]

I read Atlas Shrugged a couple of years ago (I'd always been put off by the size of the damn thing).
I really enjoyed it as a kind of retro-alternate history sci-fi, although Rand's writing style is kind of clumsy. She writes villains that annoy you very well (everyone hates a weasel, and everyone hates petty people), which makes it easy to sympathize with her badly written 'heroes'.
I disagree with some of her ideas whilst agreeing with others, but thought the ending

*spoiler alert*

where John Galt tells them how to fix the torture machine they are using on him, for me, exactly described a certain kind of spiteful pettiness that I believe is one of the most serious problems maybe every society has.

I found I enjoyed "The Fountainhead" and "We the Living" more than "Atlas Shrugged" as you could feel she was trying to make "Atlas Shrugged" the magnum opus of her philosophy; whereas, the other two books - while heavy with philosophy - work better as novels IMHO.

I've always felt that her heroes and villains were suppose to be "larger than life" exaggerations of real people. While I've met people who have characteristic similar to both her heroes and villains, few people are all-evil or all-hero all the time and in all aspects of their life.

To that point, that's why I always thought Gail Wynand - the publisher of The Banner in "The Fountainhead" - was one of her best characters as he was conflicted morally and, thus, his thoughts and actions (and inconsistencies) felt more human to me than most of her other characters. He was also very well portrayed in the movie version of "The Fountainhead" by Raymond Massey (an underrated actor IMHO).

 

[LizzieMaine]

The movie version of "Fountainhead" may be the single most overtly-Freudian picture ever made -- the throbbing drills, the thrusting skyscrapers, etc. etc. etc. -- and director King Vidor knew exactly what he was doing (and Rand hated him for it.) If there's a subtext in Rand's writing beyond her philosophical-political agenda, it's her not-so-subtle fixation on power = sex, and that theme runs thruout the movie.

That fixation is another reason -- besides my disagreement with her philosophy -- that I disliked "Atlas Shrugged:" Dagny Taggart is obsessed to the point of ridiculousness with the idea being raped by "powerful, individualistic men." Take away Rand's philosophical pretenses, and you've got the 1940s-50s equivalent of E. L. James.

I think, and I'm not being sarcastic here, that this is a big reason why she's often a favorite of a certain type of teenage boys, who are just the right age to give up on superhero fantasies in favor of a more grown-up kind of power fantasy.

 

[Fading Fast]

Ayn Rand believed that she was right about everything - every thought, idea, emotion she had, she believed was philosophically / metaphysically correct. She clearly had a sexual desire to be taken by strong men. Most people get that their own sexual desires are just that - their own desires, not some cosmically correct stance on how to have sex. But for Rand, her personal desire had to fit into her overall philosophy and couldn't be an opinion - it had to be the factual / provable right way to feel.

Dominique Francon had about the same sexual desires as Dagney - as they were both Rand heroes. And, yes, my God, the movie was insanely sexually symbolic in a to-the-point-of-ridiculous way. I always thought her philosophy appealed to a small subset of teenagers (boys and girls - I know it has a following with both sexes, but don't know the percentages for teenagers other than that her overall follower base is heavily skewed to men) in part because at that age absolute answers - without all the messy grayness of real life - is attractive. She gives answers / she takes no prisoners / she sets up a world where right is right and wrong is wrong and it is easy to see which is which. Be it Rand's philosophy or socialism or some other philosophy or religion, teenagers tend to be some of the most ardent followers as they are new recruits (always a passionate bunch) looking for black and white answers to the world that, they assume, would be better off if the older people hadn't messed it up already.

In the last few years, I saw a movie version of "Atlas Shrugged." Low budget but not embarrassingly cheaply done. It was set in the near future, but other than that, it followed the basic outline of the novel. And like the novel it is, IMHO, an intentionally exaggerated world of black and white / right versus wrong / good versus evil.

 

[LizzieMaine]

I don't think I've ever met a full-blooded female Randite. I've known a lot of men who were impressed with her, for one reason or another, especially on the Internet. But I've never run into a woman who was devoted to her teachings. That's not to say there aren't any out there, but they're a lot thinner on the ground than male Randites.

One of my close friends is named "Dagny," and was born in 1958, so I always assumed that her dad must've picked it up from the book -- but she swears it's an old Swedish name and any resemblance between fictitious railroad magnates and herself is purely coincidental. She actually gets offended when people assume otherwise.

 

[Fading Fast]

That's funny on the name thing, as a good friend of mine's wife is named Kira after the lead female in "We the Living." She, her mom and her dad are big Ayn Rand fans. Kira's husband is a middle of the road guy philosophically and they seem to just leave each other alone on those issues and their marriage is now in its second decade and going strong.

I haven't met that many full-on Radians, but I have met many who "like" her philosophy and incorporate parts of it into their philosophical outlook. Definitely, more men than women, but not exclusively men. Then again, I work in finance which is a field that attracts a lot of libertarian-leaning people. Although, and not what most people expect, finance has a large number (I'd say at least a third) of very liberal democrats - it is not the stereotype that many people think.

 

[T Jones]

Have you read "Atlas Shrugged" or any Ayn Rand before? If not, I'm curious as to what put it on your radar?

Sure. I can tell you what put it on my radar, but why do you ask? Is there something objectionable to the book? I noticed that the book itself and the very mentioning of Ayn Rand seems to stir up a lot of passions, especially with the left. They seem to bristle at it....Yes. Raymond Massey was definitely underrated as an actor. I thought he was one of the true classics. He was one of my favorites, and I liked him in "Fountainhead".

 

[Big J]

Sure. I can tell you what put it on my radar, but why do you ask? Is there something objectionable to the book? I noticed that the book itself and the very mentioning of Ayn Rand seems to stir up a lot of passions, especially with the left. They seem to bristle at it....Yes. Raymond Massey was definitely underrated as an actor. I thought he was one of the true classics. He was one of my favorites, and I liked him in "Fountainhead".

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say that I like the fact that Rand's heros feel fully empowered to follow 'The American Dream'. They take responsibility for themselves, and have no room for self-debt. That's not a bad message. What I don't like is that Rand's utopia doesn't seem to help the weakest members of society; if you're disabled, incapacitated- you're kind of screwed. I think we're better than that.

 

[Fading Fast]

Sure. I can tell you what put it on my radar, but why do you ask? Is there something objectionable to the book? I noticed that the book itself and the very mentioning of Ayn Rand seems to stir up a lot of passions, especially with the left. They seem to bristle at it....Yes. Raymond Massey was definitely underrated as an actor. I thought he was one of the true classics. He was one of my favorites, and I liked him in "Fountainhead".

Nothing objectionable to me about it at all. My leanings are libertarian - so no issues here. But as an ardent anti-communist (not arguing a political position, just stating mine, as our inimitable and invaluable Lizzie does hers), I have know objections with Das Kapital as a book to be read and discussed. While this is not the venue for political discussions, I'm comfortable with all ideas being studied, discussed and debated. I was just sincerely curious as to what turned you on to Ayn Rand. And we are in the same boat regarding Massey.

 

[Fading Fast]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can say that I like the fact that Rand's heros feel fully empowered to follow 'The American Dream'. They take responsibility for themselves, and have no room for self-debt. That's not a bad message. What I don't like is that Rand's utopia doesn't seem to help the weakest members of society; if you're disabled, incapacitated- you're kind of screwed. I think we're better than that.

I am not an expert on Rand, but I don't think she had any issue with private charity helping handicapped people - she, in her personal life, helped many people less fortunate than her (if they fit the right template to her definition of needy). In her books, some successful characters help needy characters (Dagney helps Reardon when he is going under, for example). Her big - huge - issue was with government helping as she saw that as the government simply taking from some and giving to others - not charity but force. She didn't believe the government could be charitable because it got all its money by force from others. And I want to emphasize two points - (1) these are not my personal views and (2) I am only discussing Ayn Rand as a writer and her views historically as we just recently did for Orwell, I have no interest in debating these points in a current context as that is outside of this forum's boundaries.

 

[LizzieMaine]

Without getting into the ideology -- I think we all know where everybody stands, and we can let it go at that -- I think the biggest problem with the book is that it *isn't a very good book.* As Bro. Fading has pointed out, it's intended as an ideological treatise, and as such it makes for a lousy novel. The premise of the story doesn't hold up under even the slightest examination, the characters are merely caricatures set up to represent different points of view, and the sex aspect is, to be blunt, embarassingly bad, as in "cheesy internet fan fiction" bad.

I don't have a problem, necessarily, with novels set up to forward an ideological viewpoint. John Steinbeck did so magnificently, and I'd say that even if he and I didn't stand on the same side of most issues. But Rand, as a writer, is no Steinbeck and never was. "Atlas Shrugged," as a work of fiction, is eternal proof of that. I think the best way I ever heard of summing it up is that it's the right-wing equivalent of Kerouac's "On The Road" -- overwrought, overlong, overrated, and unless you're a true-believing member of the author's cult, rather pointless.

As for Rand herself and the sincerity of her beliefs, well, at the end of her life she was benefitting from Social Security and Medicare, so...

 

[jamespowers]

As for Rand herself and the sincerity of her beliefs, well, at the end of her life she was benefitting from Social Security and Medicare, so...

When you are forced to pay you take it because you paid for it forcibly.

 

[LizzieMaine]

John Galt would have flung it back in the Government's face with a haughty disdainful laugh. And then he'd seduce Eleanor Roosevelt and show her who was her master.

 

[jamespowers]

John Galt would have flung it back in the Government's face with a haughty disdainful laugh. And then he'd seduce Eleanor Roosevelt and show her who was her master.

Oh geez! Now I need mind bleach! Eleanor? :faint:

 

[LizzieMaine]

Meanwhile, here's a fascinating bit of Randiana -- her 1959 CBS-TV interview with none other than Mike Wallace. I'm sure she considered him, as she did most of the rest of us, "unworthy of love."

[video=youtube;HKd0ToQD00o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKd0ToQD00o[/video]

 

[hatguy1]

Ayn Rand believed that she was right about everything - every thought, idea, emotion she had, she believed was philosophically / metaphysically correct.

Sounds like another prominent female I know of....

I've had many friends recommend "Atlas Shrugged" to me and praise it highly. However, like J, I've always been put off by its thickness. However, one of these days, I'm gonna have to break down and read it. After hearing T Jones' and other comments in addition to the praise of its previous recommenders, I think I'll have to get a copy and get 'er done!

 

[jamespowers]

Meanwhile, here's a fascinating bit of Randiana -- her 1959 CBS-TV interview with none other than Mike Wallace. I'm sure she considered him, as she did most of the rest of us, "unworthy of love."

[video=youtube;HKd0ToQD00o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKd0ToQD00o[/video]

There is just so much to comment on there---especially the love thing. It makes sense as you don't set out to chose an inferior mate. You want someone who is worthy---someone you can respect. It is like a business decision in the sense that you are making a choice that should last you the rest of your life. Choose poorly and you have wasted a lot of time invested in an unworthy person---not to mention the strife. I would imagine if people put more thought into their relationships instead of heart then they might last longer and be less of a conundrum to them......
Mike Wallace---yes unworthy. lol lol lol

 

[Big J]

John Galt would have flung it back in the Government's face with a haughty disdainful laugh. And then he'd seduce Eleanor Roosevelt and show her who was her master.

lol!

 

[Big J]

Sounds like another prominent female I know of....

I've had many friends recommend "Atlas Shrugged" to me and praise it highly. However, like J, I've always been put off by its thickness. However, one of these days, I'm gonna have to break down and read it. After hearing T Jones' and other comments in addition to the praise of its previous recommenders, I think I'll have to get a copy and get 'er done!

Absolutely. It is waaaaaaaay too long. And badly written.
Don't get me wrong, long books are within my attention span; I could easily read Moby Dick again, and enjoyed reading War & Peace, but Atlas Shrugged is a hassle to plod through.
She needed a much better editor.