Were center dents more common in England?

[RBH]

While watching the 'hat' channel last night there were a couple of English films playing.
Most all of the fedoras had center dents .
It makes me wonder if the center dent was more common there and {as I had made mention in another thread}that the c-crown or variation of a c-crown was more common here in the States.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

RBH, I don't have the slightest idea, but I watched those same movies. At least during that time period that seemed to be the case. By the way, the movies were better than I expected!

 

[Brad Bowers]

Those were some fun movies!

I don't know about international differences, but here in the States the center dent was a predominant style in the early twentieth century and up through the '30s, but by the '40s the C-crowns had become more popular. Those films were all mid-thirties, I think, and the hats looked pretty typical. Didn't seem to be much different from American hats of the time.

Brad

 

[metropd]

My cognitation is that the center dent is a little more traditional "homburgish" and the British are very trational especially in the 30's. You can see teardrops and diamond bashes in the early 20's, I've even seen a picture from 1909 with a fedora with a teardrop. Even by the mid-late 30's in the American movies most are teardrops or are variations that I've seen.

 

[Tony in Tarzana]

Well, technically they'd be "centre" dents.

 

[Kentucky Blues]

I've found that the only hats I can easily wear with a good looking center dent, are those with taller crowns. Lower crown hats will have the center dent pushed up by my head, so I end up turning them into tear drop/c-dent/diamond/etc dents. And if taller crowns were more common in the 30's, and lower crowns in the 40's, that could explain why 30's hats tend to have center dents more

 

[havershaw]

I sort of recall a thread from a year or two ago and I think it was generally agreed that the center (sorry, I mean "centre") dent was indeed more of a UK thing.
Speaking of styles etc., I continually hear folks say that hats were out of vogue in the 50s and that brims were getting small. But watching any number of 50s film noirs seems to disprove this. Maybe Hollywood was just behind the times, fashion-wise (at least, Hollywood cops). Some of my favorite hat movies - wide brims, tall crowns - are 50s film noirs.

 

[Forgotten Man]

Truthfully, it really depended on the individual’s own taste. I’ve seen many different crown shapes in old movies from the 30’s to the 40’s. I know that English fashion has always had some kind of influence in American fashion. My self, I prefer a center dent for more late 20’s and early 30’s style… and for 40’s, I prefer the diamond style.

FM~

 

[Edward]

I sort of recall a thread from a year or two ago and I think it was generally agreed that the center (sorry, I mean "centre") dent was indeed more of a UK thing.
Speaking of styles etc., I continually hear folks say that hats were out of vogue in the 50s and that brims were getting small. But watching any number of 50s film noirs seems to disprove this. Maybe Hollywood was just behind the times, fashion-wise (at least, Hollywood cops). Some of my favorite hat movies - wide brims, tall crowns - are 50s film noirs.

Though by that point in time, the battered trenchcoat and high crown, wide brim fedora had become established as shorthand for detective / private detective, so they may have reflected cinematic convention more than any particular fashion sense or lack thereof.

It seems to me that the simple reason for the popularity of the centre dent was that it's by far an easier bash to manage for the average man bashing his own hat at home. Maybe more complicated shapes came into fashion later on when hats began to come pre-shaped as a matter of course? I may be wrong on this, but it seems logical. Commnts above re crown height make sense too.

 

[fatwoul]

I think you're right, Ed, that it may reflect cinematic preference rather than that of the public at large, but you're also right that it could simply be because it is a more straightforward bash to do yourself.

I suspect it may also have been a simplicity of dress deal too:

Hollywood had actors with their complex bash shapes, their hats competing with them to see who can overact the most.

Pinewood's actors had clipped voices, and simple bashes.

OK, so I'm stereotyping and being quite rude in the process, but do you see what I mean? Like someone said earlier in the thread, I think it sounds like quite a British thing. We were an uptight bunch. WWII loosened us up a bit.

 

[Edward]

I've often womdered, actually, at another difference i see a lot in hats- the Fedoras common in US period films are typically much wider in the brim than the Trilbys worn in England (I'd regard a Trilby as a specific subset of the stingy brimmed fedora, down largely to the exaggerated up swoop of the rear of the brim, which always seems that much more pronounced to me). It seems such a pronounced difference again that I had started to wonder whether it was a specific cultural thing. By any chance, is it reflective in the US of the average man's hat evolving out of the western / cowboy hat - something that wasn't really worn over here? I also wonder whether the prevailing climate affected this too... a wider brim would be of more use for sun protection in the sunnier US, whereas in the damper climate over this side of the Atlantic, a hat has always been of greater use to keep the rain off and the head warm...

Or am I disappearing into my own navel here?

 

[Kishtu]

Edward I'm glad you said that about the Trilby being a subset of the fedora, as I was talking to my dad about my dearie's new hat and we couldn't decide which it was... I say it's a Trilby, he says it's a fed, 's a nice hat though.

(With a centre dent, natch.)

My two-pennorth - I wonder how much the silver screen styles impacted on the way the man in the street wore/customised his hat - whether the films came first and, as now, people thought "that looks smart!" and tried to emulate the cinema style....?

 

[Edward]

Oh hey, don't take my word on anything, I'm certainly no expert!

I think you have a ponit re emulating screen idols. Back in the day there must have been a lot of folks intent on looking like Bogie - just as we have in the FL... It's not so obvious among men (always seems to me there are way more "how to look like Angelina" articles than "how to look like Brad"), but for certain there are a lot of guys who try to dress like contemporary celebrities. though he'll always look alien in it to me, Beckham has probably influenced a lot of men who wouldn't otherwise to try a suit. I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more of a certain type of leather jacket around town after Fight Club. Maybe Indy IV will stimulate hat wearing a bit??

 

[fatwoul]

...I'm pretty certain I saw a lot more of a certain type of leather jacket around town after Fight Club...

Elvis shades, too. Good point you make, there. Although let's hope not too many people take to wearing fedoras after Indy IV comes out. It's nice to stand out just a little bit.

As to what you were saying, Kishtu, the guy at the petrol station complimented me on my trilby last week (I was wearing my Federation). I've always thought Trilbies (Trilbys? Is it a brand name?) to have narrower brims.

 

[Kishtu]

There's a thought - why is it called a Trilby?

I thought it was after the character in the novel by George du Maurier, for some reason... hence the capitalisation....

But re: the definition, I don't know - quite agree about the narrower brim, but don't know if it's a sub-set of the same basic design, or a whole new breed of hat altogether!

 

[barrowjh]

I'm interested by Edward's speculation that American wide-brims were influenced by the 'cowboy' hat. I've noted that pics of turn-of-the century American men often included a number of guys that simply had wide-brim open crown hats, as well as those bashed into fedora styles, and a mix of bowlers.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I have gotten the impression that the only 'cowboy' hat for sale today that would fit in with typical photos from the 1800s is a 'gus' style. One old thread stated that today's cattleman crease used to be called an alpine crease. So I was under the impression that most of today's 'cowboy' style versions (cattelman's, hi-bull rider, etc) were etched into 'cowboy' lore in the last 50-70 years. Early blue-grass (the original country & western, in the radio days) performers sported ORs with a cattleman's crease at live performances - were they following cowboys or did they help create the image?

Maybe the Colorado School of Mines, with their adoption of the Stetson as the marker for the senior class, which later became the Stetson OR, did they lead a western fashion trend that was copied by musicians and then cowboys?

Some of the earliest B&W films show cowboys in a variety of hats - none of which match up well with the styles Resistol & others are marketing today. I'm trying to drive this towards a conclusion that the sun was the primary factor that caused just about all American hats (other than bowlers and caps) to be wide-brim. I'm probably wrong, but I at least hope to incite someone to clarify, as I am curious about this.

 

[J.T.Marcus]

American hat evolution has fascinated me for years. Here are some of my hypotheses, which have not necessarily been established as fact. When the Civil War ended and westward expansion resumed, people wore whatever hats they already had. Those who had been farmers (or other outdoor types) had generous brims on their hats. Those who came from city life had hats with smaller brims. It was a mix of all styles, as shown by photos from the time. The closest thing to our concept of a cowboy hat was the Army Officer's felt hat. Both sides used pretty much the same hat. The Mexican Sombrero had already set a trend for huge brims, to protect from the sun. When the cattle drives began, cowboys quickly learned to appreciate large brims. There was no definitive shape to the cowboy hat, though. The new hats were sold "open crown" with flat brims. Everybody then personalized his hat, sometimes deliberately, sometimes accidentally (Remember, it was worn every day in every circumstance; rain or shine, clean or dusty.).

In Dodge City, Kansas, there is a large collection of photographs which young cowboys had made of themselves, at the end of the drive. It is obvious that every one of them washed himself, his clothes, and HIS HAT for the picture. The hats are rather shapeless, and pushed back on the head, so you can see the young man's face. Aside from the brim size, they don't look much like anything we would call a cowboy hat.

Movies came along in just a few years, and began to establish certain styles for western hats. From about 1900-1940 the main style was the Tom Mix with what we call the "gus" crease. When Roy Rogers settled on his personal favorite, that became the new standard, and the Tom Mix went out of style. The Roy Rogers lasted till Clint Eastwood (get the picture?) Indeed, you have but to watch three movies to see this evolution unfold.

In short, The movies had a tremendous impact on cowboy hats. I suspect the same is true of Fedoras. The single greatest influence was undoubtedly turning the brim down in front. I remember one film (Whose title escapes me), where a woman kept trying to convince her boyfriend to turn the brim of his hat down, telling him that "up" was out of style.

Brim width, was also influenced by the movies. There was , however, no linear progression. They did not start big in 1900 and get small in 1950. There were several fluctuations along the way. These can be observed by paying attention to movie dates on THE HAT CHANNEL (TCM). The thing which most influenced brim width on dress hats was suit styles, which changed several times during that period. Wide brim hats went well with wide lapels, narrow brims with narrow lapels. Hollywood tended to follow suit.

I'm done talking, now. Thanks for reading.

 

[Edward]

Regarding the "cowboy style" issue.... I think the idea that what we now know as a cowboy style being very different from what was the reality is a good point. Ideas of historical accuracy in the movies have changed and developed over time, and what has evolved in the public consciousness as the typical "cowboy" in actuality often bears little resemblence to the reality. I'm reminded of that scene in Back to the Future III where Doc Brown dresses Marty in what is a very 50s idea of "cowboy clothes."

There's a thought - why is it called a Trilby?

I thought it was after the character in the novel by George du Maurier, for some reason... hence the capitalisation....

But re: the definition, I don't know - quite agree about the narrower brim, but don't know if it's a sub-set of the same basic design, or a whole new breed of hat altogether!

You're right about the name - at least according to several things I've read (but no longer remember the sources) over the years, and dear old Wikipedia, which states "A hat of this style was worn on stage during the play's [i.e. the play based on the novel] first London production."

You may be right that it's a new breed.... thinking about it, yes, it basically is a stingy brimmed fedora with that very pronounced swoop at the back, but if the pencil curl brim is enough to differentiate a homberg as a distinct style from a fedora, then maybe there is an argument that the Trilby is a new breed of its own.

Elvis shades, too. Good point you make, there. Although let's hope not too many people take to wearing fedoras after Indy IV comes out. It's nice to stand out just a little bit.

Heh heh, isn't that the old devil? I've always had that confusion, right from I was fifteen and complaining that the music in the charts was crap, then when any of "my" bands got into the charts I was outraged that the mainstream were "stealing" "my" music. lol I'm a bit like that with clothes now too. Sure, I love to make a statement by dressing differently from the norm and not wanting to be the same as the run of the mill. I don't want to be in fashion, though it would be nice to be able to find bits and pieces more easily, as well as to be able to dress with flair and it not always be considered to be a grand statement of some sort.

As to what you were saying, Kishtu, the guy at the petrol station complimented me on my trilby last week (I was wearing my Federation). I've always thought Trilbies (Trilbys? Is it a brand name?) to have narrower brims.

I think it's one of those things where what people popularly assume the name to mean isn't necessarily correct. I've had people compliment my "Trilby" when I've been wearing a panama. If it's just someone in the street I would just smile and thank them - a longer term acquaintance I might swing the coversation round to "actually it's a panama / fedora / whatever", but in the street it could come over as being an elitist sneer when really somebody was being nice. Not enough people compliment others on the street anymore, I like to encourage it! I think folks in the UK just associate any soft, brimmed hat in vaguely that style with being a Trilby - in pracitc,e it's almost like the cravat / acsot distinction in usage, it seems to me (i.e. Fedora in the US, Trilby in the UK). I suppose it's simply a symptom of hats not being popular nowadays - if very few folks wear them, most people won't really know that much about one from the other. Like asking my mother what car somebody drives - she'll say "a red one" or whatever, might not know if it's a Ford or a Rover. I'm not much better myself. lol We're neither of us drivers.

 

[Matt Deckard]

I think it's a pretty close call. Bowlers and Homburgs were more popular than the fedora in the UK. The homburg outpacing the fedora in the 20's when in the US you'd see more of a bowler fedora mix with the fedora taking over.

As for creases, I have more pics of UK hats that have been grabbed by the front and they all have center dents. I think the

Soft felt hats and wool caps were more country wear than city wear. After the first world war the soft hats took over for city wear as well. The ones i've seen in old catalogs and pics appear to be nonchalant when worn, less care and worry than the usual Lounge member puts into his has is put in by these guys because they wore their hats like people wear jeans today. I do tend to see more high crowns on US hats in the 20's to the 30's.
1936 uk

earlier in the US the bowler was the standard. Less soft felts though the ones you see are usually grabbed from the top in a cattleman crease sort of way.
1903 US

 

[J.T.Marcus]

Matt, I'm fascinated by the guy in the lower left corner. Looks like he's wearing a campaign hat with a pencil roll in the brim!