Were Belstaff jackets originally made with leather?

[Marv]

I had one of the waxed cotton jackets when I first started riding bikes in my teens during the eighties, great jacket but the waxed cotton held all the odours that came with biking - the smell of the road, two-stroke and engines.

It go so bad that my mum used to make me hang it in the garage when it was not being worn, same the with the matching trousers.

 

[Plumbline]

You have the Barbour story backwards! The International motorcycle suit came first, then the Ursula submarine jacket. Here is a pretty good article on it, cuts through some of the tall tails, which includes Queen Marry. http://thevintageshowroom.com/2009/12/ursula-suit.html

No .. the original M/C suit was like an overall / boiuler suit / one piece thing .. the Submarine jacket came next ( in fact the fact thjat so many motorcyclists wore the surplus and ex-military Submariner jackets is what prompted Barbour to design and produce the international ) ..... then the International Jacket in 1949/50.

Sadly though, even Barbour have succumed to the fashion over function mantra and the modern International and International Trials bear little resemblence to their predecessors save some styling cues ( slanted chest pocket) and basic overall look and feel IMHO

http://www.barbour.com/all-about-wax

 

[Plumbline]

They are actually made in Italy, but are still overpriced.

http://www.belstaff.com/men/outerwear/jackets-and-coats/the-panther-jacket/71120006.html

Not sure about that ... I was in the Belstaff Outlet store in Bicester before Xmas and all of the leathers I looked at were either made in China or India ( quality was VERY poor IMHO and construction was more Wilsons rather than Lost Worlds ). The waxed cottons were also Chinese manufactured and the sizing was bizzare to say the least .. some garments were US sized ( I was a medium) and some were waaaay undersized ( I was a XXL)

As I said fashion rather than function ..... to say I was unimpressed is an understatement.

 

[Edward]

In my town they are very common in very dark green waxed cotton with a corduroy collar. But most of them are made by Barbour;

and never in leather. I don't know elsewhere but in my town, it's the preppies' official outfit. This picture could have been perfectly taken around here;

Hard to tell from the photo - is that belted? There are two distinct types of Barbour: jackets aimed at the Country Sports set (adopted into City fashion quite often in recent decades), and jackets aimed more at the motorcycling fraternity. What you're describing sounds a lot more like the former than the latter.

Both types are equally pratical, though I'd quite possibly hesitate nowadays to take an unarmoured, waxed cotton jacket out on the back of a bike. Another notable difference is length. The belted, MC-type jackets tend to be hip length. Unsurprising given their original design purpose, and the fact that they were intended to be worn as part of a two-piece suit. As a jacket alone, they're great for a light drizzle, but absent an umbrella if you rely on one of these alone to keep you dry you'll quickly find you have soggy legs. The country-type jackets tend to be just that little bit longer, designed to have been worn over the top of tweed or wool, with shooting breeks or the likes on the bottom.

There was a Lounger some years ago had an Aero Barnstormer made up in Waxed cotton, with a mouton collar. Looked fantastic - wish I could find that thread now! I imagine one of those - especially shearling lined - would be a fantastic wet weather coat for really cold days.

I believe that style was originally made in waxed cotton. Belstaff used to include a metal tag with a serial number and the year that the jacket was introduced (not sure if the new owners still do this). The tag in my waxed cotton version (aka Trialmaster) says that it was introduced in 1948. The tag in my leather version (aka Panther) says that it was introduced in 1960.

That's the impression I have. Personally, I've never cared for them in leather - it just looks "wrong" to me. That is, of course, a personal preference. I speculate - and I emphasise, this is pure specualtion - that part of the demand for a leather one came in as motorcycles became bigger and faster. Early motorbikes were glorified pushbikes with a small engine. Not that a spill from one of those would be exactly pleasant, they didn't really go an awful lot faster than a road-racer on a pushbike (the difference would be anyone could reach that speed, and stay at it until they ran out of fuel, road and traffic conditions permitting). As time goes on, it's no big deal to be able to do the ton on most bikes, and bigger bikes are arriving; with them, more demand for more protective clothing... and so we see the rise of the leather jacket. Maybe the leather versions of a belted jacket originated to meet the demands of an earlier generation of motorcyclists who wanted the perceived protection offered by leather but remained stylistically stuck to what they knew....

As I say, though, I'm only speculating here based on what little I know of motorcycle history. If anyone can correct me, please do!

I had the leather Panther and the difference between the toughness spiel and the actual leather was laughable. I also had the heavy waxed cotton Che Guevara (as opposed to the thinner, cheaper, much more common Roadmaster), which looked the same as the Panther, and much preferred the Che.

The Che seems to have been a nice jacket; I also liked the look of the tan-coloured Lawrence of Arabia model that they produced as, I think, a hot-weather equivalent.

Wasn't this design adapted from a military source? I'm sure I've seen fabric versions of this style that go back to early 20th century.

They remind me a lot of the M42 jacket...

...but I believe these predated it by a couple of decades. Also not a million miles away from the early twentieth century Safari jacket in basic shape / look, albeit adapted for a differnet climate. Again there, though, I think that was a more civilian design that was adopted by the military?

I am not sure that there is a generic name for the jacket. I looked into them a bit a few years ago. It seemed like both Barbour and Belstaff claimed to have originated the design... and both claim affiliation with Steve McQueen.

As memory serves, McQueen wore Belstaff on his own time as his own personal jacket, but when competing for the US in international events he wore a Barbour as the latter was the official team sponsor. Both therefore do have a legitimate claim, albeit that the Belstaff brand arguably has the edge for those who particularly care what McQueen's own choice was.

At this point, the Barbour International is a much better value than the Belstaff Trialmaster (if you're in the market for a waxed cotton version). I think that Belstaff still has the leather Panther version in their line, but it is way overpriced. Their are other makers (e.g. Lewis Leathers) that offer the same style at a lower price point (and imo better quality).

Agreed on all points. If I wanted one in leather, I'd look first at Lewis. Do bear in mind that this won't be Aero-type heavy leather (their jackets are more akin to a midweight A2....), which is more accurate to the originals, of course. The International and the Trialmaster/Trailmaster (I've seen it marketed as both!) are as near as dammit the same jacket, and the Barbour definitely offers much better VFM. It's not hard to find the Barbour for GBP 100 less - and that includes the Winter lining if you buy right. Mine is actually the slightly slimmer fit Trials model Barbour International - doesn't take a lining, but fantastic for those colder, heavy-rain days in September. Or August, for that matter. Any time of year you'd consider an A2... At the right price, I'd definitely consider a standard model, in maybe a different colour (Balck is most common; brown is harder to find but I have seen it; green is nice too).

They are actually made in Italy, but are still overpriced.

http://www.belstaff.com/men/outerwear/jackets-and-coats/the-panther-jacket/71120006.html

I certainly wouldn't pay any upcharge (assuming a product is otherwise identical) based on something as irrelevant to the quality of the jacket as country of manufacture.

An old member here who worked in zipper procurement (I think; at least something in the zipper line) at Belstaff in the 1960s is adamant that the beginning of the end for Belstaff was the abandonment of Lightning and adoption of YKK zippers in the early 1970s. I think this move induced him to quit.

Zips are serious business! I've never been let down by a YKK, but they certainly aren't the most attractive option out there...

 

[rocketeer]

About 15 years ago you could pick up old Belstaff waxed jackets at car boot sales for around £3 a go, I thought I was pushing it a bit selling them on at shows for around £10-15 then the Japanese decided to take a fancy to them and the prices went through the roof! Not seen one at a car boot for years now.
I have a studded up Leather Belstaff, sorry it needs a new zip so no YKK or Lightning

Odd for a Rocker/Greaser jacket, this one is dedicated to a Japanese bike

 

[Stearmen]

No .. the original M/C suit was like an overall / boiuler suit / one piece thing .. the Submarine jacket came next ( in fact the fact thjat so many motorcyclists wore the surplus and ex-military Submariner jackets is what prompted Barbour to design and produce the international ) ..... then the International Jacket in 1949/50.

Barbour states that the International jacket was introduced in 1936, then was adopted by the Submariners in 1940. They ought to know. http://www.barbour.com/feature/75-years-international

 

[Plumbline]

Good information but it conflicts with their own timeline which I posted ... which was :

1930's - Motorcycle Suit
1940's - Submariner Jacket
Late 1940's - International Jacket ( with 1951 being the official year of launch of the " International "Green" Jacket )


Here is Barbours own timeline ( as posted earlier )

http://www.barbour.com/all-about-wax

The Motorcycle suit certainly existed in the 1930's abeit with no zip and a double placket front ( there are archive pictures of the same ) ....

So it seems they might be confused ..... either way it's been around for a long time !

 

[Tony B]

Aerojoe, I had one of the belstaff ones from the eighties...second hand so I assumed it was early to mid eighties.

The thing was nothing like the ones they turn out these days, it was cut just the same as the wax cotton ones so was very low under the armpits with baggy sleeves for movement but the sleeves were really short so they really rode up when you reached forward and when you raised your arms you got a horrible bat wing effect. Very like the barbour international in other words, the old ones sized in inches that is not the more modern ones size l, xl etc.

The problem was that it was a proper bike jacket so the the leather was thick which I normally like, I think it weighed about 10 pounds, but with the baggy arms and the body being very generously cut you ended up with a lot of very thick leather flapping around under your arms when walking in it so it got very little use and I got rid of it a couple of years ago at a very nice mark up.

 

[Smithy]

Good information but it conflicts with their own timeline which I posted ... which was :

1930's - Motorcycle Suit
1940's - Submariner Jacket
Late 1940's - International Jacket ( with 1951 being the official year of launch of the " International "Green" Jacket )


Here is Barbours own timeline ( as posted earlier )

http://www.barbour.com/all-about-wax

The Motorcycle suit certainly existed in the 1930's abeit with no zip and a double placket front ( there are archive pictures of the same ) ....

So it seems they might be confused ..... either way it's been around for a long time !

I'm by no means an expert on the history of motorcycle clothing so stand to be corrected, but I do wonder if we can trace the beginnings even further than that.

I know a little bit more about aviation and vintage motoring clothing and there was a large crossover from aviators to drivers in the veteran and vintage eras, and I'm wondering if the same is true with motorcycle clobber during the same period. From the few pictures I've seen of pre-war motorcycle suits and in relation to the jackets/coats they do seem to be an evolution of the flying coat, albeit shortened and less bulky. Some even had a similar "storm collar" pattern.

I might be completely off target but just wondering.

 

[Edward]

About 15 years ago you could pick up old Belstaff waxed jackets at car boot sales for around £3 a go, I thought I was pushing it a bit selling them on at shows for around £10-15 then the Japanese decided to take a fancy to them and the prices went through the roof! Not seen one at a car boot for years now.
I have a studded up Leather Belstaff, sorry it needs a new zip so no YKK or Lightning

Odd for a Rocker/Greaser jacket, this one is dedicated to a Japanese bike

Definitely unusual for it not to be Brit-bike based. Does this indicate that it might be a later jacket than the early Sixties Heyday of the Rockers, i.e. from a time when the Brit ike industry was beginning to decline and the Japanese bikes were coming to the fore?

Aerojoe, I had one of the belstaff ones from the eighties...second hand so I assumed it was early to mid eighties.

The thing was nothing like the ones they turn out these days, it was cut just the same as the wax cotton ones so was very low under the armpits with baggy sleeves for movement but the sleeves were really short so they really rode up when you reached forward and when you raised your arms you got a horrible bat wing effect. Very like the barbour international in other words, the old ones sized in inches that is not the more modern ones size l, xl etc.

The problem was that it was a proper bike jacket so the the leather was thick which I normally like, I think it weighed about 10 pounds, but with the baggy arms and the body being very generously cut you ended up with a lot of very thick leather flapping around under your arms when walking in it so it got very little use and I got rid of it a couple of years ago at a very nice mark up.

I always figured that particular style wouldn't be the best comfort-fit for a modern or racer style bike, as opposed to the older, more sat upright style.

 

[Sloan1874]

Clear yer mail box, Ed!

 

[Capesofwrath]

Definitely unusual for it not to be Brit-bike based. Does this indicate that it might be a later jacket than the early Sixties Heyday of the Rockers, i.e. from a time when the Brit ike industry was beginning to decline and the Japanese bikes were coming to the fore?

.

Could just be a sixties jacket that someone added that to later. The Honda 750/4 was introduced into the UK around the early seventies from memory.

 

[gtdean48]

Could just be a sixties jacket that someone added that to later. The Honda 750/4 was introduced into the UK around the early seventies from memory.

1969 was the intro of the CB750/4 to the USA that changed the entire US motorcycle landscape.
I have a 10th Anniversary CB750 Limited, 1979...

 

[Capesofwrath]

Right, I knew it was about the turn of that decade when I first started seeing them around. They changed the UK landscape even more in that they and the other big Jap bikes killed off the already sickly British motorcycle industry within a few years.

There were a few bigger Jap bikes before them but most people in the UK associated Honda with the wet dream and other smaller bikes until the seventies explosion. I'd had only Brit bikes, but some friends had Hondas and Suzukis, and the change to bikes which started on the button and didn't leak oil was a very big one. I didn't get a Jap bike until the later seventies, and I still have fonder memories of Royal Enfields and Nortons and BSAs than the only Honda I ever bought. But change the landscape they certainly did.

 

[rocketeer]

Definitely unusual for it not to be Brit-bike based. Does this indicate that it might be a later jacket than the early Sixties Heyday of the Rockers, i.e. from a time when the Brit ike industry was beginning to decline and the Japanese bikes were coming to the fore?

Early British bike youth culture probably starts with the 'Ton up' boys then moving to the Rockers of the 1960s, by the mid 1960s studs, patches and badges had become more popular and the riders tended to be referred to as Greasers around the late 1960s and into the 70s.
The Confederate painted patch would have been synonymous with the Rock n Roll movement of the early 1970s, it did not indicate racism though usually associated with the southern US states, but with the Rockabilly music that started in many of them.
J

 

[rocketeer]

I always figured that particular style wouldn't be the best comfort-fit for a modern or racer style bike, as opposed to the older, more sat upright style.

They are still popular, as you say, not really suitable for the sports bike rider as we tend to wear the 'Power Ranger style. The wax cotton style is still popular with the modern retro bikes(Bonnevilles etc), as is the standard Lancer black leather, as well as vintage bike riders and some adventure bikers, and most bikes not requiring the racing crouch. But the Japanese love them even on cafe racer style motorcycles, though tend to try to wear originals(jackets that is)

 

[Edward]

Clear yer mail box, Ed!

Done!

Could just be a sixties jacket that someone added that to later. The Honda 750/4 was introduced into the UK around the early seventies from memory.

Makes sense. Back in the 70s jackets like this were common, and I believe fairly cheap second hand (which is why they became a common sight among the punk rock crowd - Sid Vicious sported one on many occasions - though they tended to favour them unfringed...or possibly they just took scissors to the offending leather strips...). Makes sense some later rocker got hold of an old jacket (or a then current continuation of the style) and went to town on it, favouring his own bike... While it's not had the obvious, mainstream revivals the likes of the mod thing have seen, the Brit Rocker thing, much like the Teddy boys, seems to have never really gone away, just bubbled under as its own subculture...

1969 was the intro of the CB750/4 to the USA that changed the entire US motorcycle landscape.
I have a 10th Anniversary CB750 Limited, 1979...

A few years ago my dad part-restored (finishing a bike bought as a project) an early 70s Honda Cx360, a lot like this one:

Rare birdy over here... the model was never officially released in the UK (there was a 350cc equivalent, I think) because 350cc was the top end of the low insurance group, and Honda figured not many folks would want to pony up for the next insurance group up for only 10cc more (if memory serves, the next group up allows for up to 500cc). The one dad had was originally imported to a US Army base somewhere in the UK, as I recall.

What proved impossible (or maybe just crazy expensive, can't recall which) to get were period decals for a resprayed tank... e ended up having a local signwriter airgun the right design directly onto the tank. Beautiful job, too - you'd never have relaised if you didn't know to look...

Right, I knew it was about the turn of that decade when I first started seeing them around. They changed the UK landscape even more in that they and the other big Jap bikes killed off the already sickly British motorcycle industry within a few years.

There were a few bigger Jap bikes before them but most people in the UK associated Honda with the wet dream and other smaller bikes until the seventies explosion. I'd had only Brit bikes, but some friends had Hondas and Suzukis, and the change to bikes which started on the button and didn't leak oil was a very big one. I didn't get a Jap bike until the later seventies, and I still have fonder memories of Royal Enfields and Nortons and BSAs than the only Honda I ever bought. But change the landscape they certainly did.

Sounds about right from what I've read (too young to have seen it first hand). Sad to see a lot of the old Brit bikes go, they had a lot of charm. Honda certain made a lot of people poo or get off the pot, though - including a well-deserved kick in the rear for Harley in the 70s (I still don't much care for Harleys, but my preference is very definitely for something small and light, low cc's and high efficiency - not really their bag. If I could afford to run a bike, I'd be looking at a used deal on one of the Indian Royal Enfield Bullets, the wee 350cc model. You can buy tidy used examples of those all day long for less than a grand!).

 

[IXL]

I had a 350cc relative of that bike. Mine was a 1972 Honda SL350, in the same Burnt Orange color as the one you show. I bought it, with only 200 miles showing) from the man across the street from me, as the daughter he purchased it for refused to ride it to college each day, and it had just sat in his garage for four years. I don't remember what I paid for it but do remember that we worked out a payment schedule and I thought it was the fastest bike known to man!

 

[regius]

You are correct about the current owners so Belstaff. However, the previous owners, who steered the line fairly successfully between their well defined motorcycle designs and their fashion line have reincarnated in their new brand- Matchless Jackets. Worth taking a gander at, but warning- pricing is not for the faint hearted. http://www.matchlesslondon.com/en/uomo/leather-collection.html

Oh my god, the matchless jackets! I just saw them at Bloomingdales and wondered what the heck are these???? they are like totally Belstaff knockoff and claim to be the OLDEST motorcycle clothing of Britain!! The style and craftsmanship are almost identical, but the badge looks just stupid I have to say, almost like child's play.

 

[Edward]

I like the Matchless logo, myself. Real vintage pedigree - Matchless motor cycles were in business in Britain between 1899 and 1966. Beautiful bikes. Strange choice to sell off the establish Belstaff brand and then go into pretty much the same market with a start up. Maybe thisw is intended to be more of a niche product, though.... They're using the original Matchless logo, so they've obviously acquired the rights. Nice to see it on the go again, albeit in a different context.