Weapons in the Movies

[BlueTrain]

I think the idea of a million tiny robots is laughable. What is the object? To achieve something meaningful, you have to either take the ground you want to have or, as Mao believed, destroy the enemy army. Neither is easy, of course. In neither case can you just sit in a hole and snipe at the enemy.

But speaking of weapons, I recall seeing trap-door Springfields in movies, although they were carbines. When did you ever see infantry in a Western movie? You only saw cavalry and they had carbines, of course.

Typically one notices weapons used in movies that are historically incorrect, with weapons not yet in service being used. But sometimes it's the other way around. I've seen films with trap-door Springfields used in movies set in the 1930s. I suspect they were still being used by the National Guard after 1900 but probably not that late. Yet M1 rifles and BARs were still being used by the Guard in the 1970s. We sometimes have the mistaken idea that once something new is adopted (always against objections), then everybody has one two weeks later. For instance, as long as we're talking about historical weapons, the 1903 bolt-action was still being manufactured during WWII as late as 1943 or maybe later, while the M1 was adopted in 1936. Even with all the rifles produced in WWII, the M1 was still being manufactured in 1959. Even the No. 4 Lee-Enfield was still being manufactured as late as 1957. I even had one.

 

[basbol13]

I think the idea of a million tiny robots is laughable. What is the object? To achieve something meaningful, you have to either take the ground you want to have or, as Mao believed, destroy the enemy army. Neither is easy, of course. In neither case can you just sit in a hole and snipe at the enemy.

But speaking of weapons, I recall seeing trap-door Springfields in movies, although they were carbines. When did you ever see infantry in a Western movie? You only saw cavalry and they had carbines, of course.

Typically one notices weapons used in movies that are historically incorrect, with weapons not yet in service being used. But sometimes it's the other way around. I've seen films with trap-door Springfields used in movies set in the 1930s. I suspect they were still being used by the National Guard after 1900 but probably not that late. Yet M1 rifles and BARs were still being used by the Guard in the 1970s. We sometimes have the mistaken idea that once something new is adopted (always against objections), then everybody has one two weeks later. For instance, as long as we're talking about historical weapons, the 1903 bolt-action was still being manufactured during WWII as late as 1943 or maybe later, while the M1 was adopted in 1936. Even with all the rifles produced in WWII, the M1 was still being manufactured in 1959. Even the No. 4 Lee-Enfield was still being manufactured as late as 1957. I even had one.

Personally this is what I'd rather be doing

 

[green papaya]

German Walther P-38 used in PLANET of THE APES

 

[BlueTrain]

Something about that P38 doesn't look quite right but no matter.

Something I find interesting in old movies is when relatively obscure guns show up. It would be equally interesting today but for some reason it would always feel forced to me. But again, no matter.

In one old comedy movie, "Killer Dill (1947)," a large frame single action S&W is used by the bad guy. In a couple of movies I've noticed Colt Bisley revolvers and one was used in a more recent movie, "The Grey Fox," a true story, mostly, that managed to get a lot of the little details right, including the handguns. I have even noticed the old Cold .38 ACP automatics (not sure which model) in one or two, too, referring to the pre-.38 Super, pre-Colt Government Model automatics. Usually the guns you saw in the older movies were invariably Colt Official Police or Police Positive Special revolvers, and S&W M&P and even N-frames sometimes. The Mounties usually had Colt large frame revolvers. The Germans naturally had Lugers and usually the bad guys had a Luger, too. One movie serial that I like, Lost City of the Jungle, had everyone using a small break-top revolver, probably Iver Johnsons. There have been a lot of movies about lost cities, too.

 

[MikeKardec]

I think the idea of a million tiny robots is laughable. What is the object? To achieve something meaningful, you have to either take the ground you want to have or, as Mao believed, destroy the enemy army. Neither is easy, of course. In neither case can you just sit in a hole and snipe at the enemy.

I agree with you about holding the ground personally but, if I was a soldier, I'd rather have some sort of robot a 100 yards ahead of me playing "cattle dog" with the enemy. Just like using armor but on the scale of a human being; like an off road version of the Texas Police robot. The arms race then becomes how to make things smaller and smaller and ultimately you end up with autonomous mini mines and nano tech "diseases." Not a future I'd like but possibly one that's coming.

Typically one notices weapons used in movies that are historically incorrect, with weapons not yet in service being used. But sometimes it's the other way around. I've seen films with trap-door Springfields used in movies set in the 1930s. I suspect they were still being used by the National Guard after 1900 but probably not that late. Yet M1 rifles and BARs were still being used by the Guard in the 1970s. We sometimes have the mistaken idea that once something new is adopted (always against objections), then everybody has one two weeks later.

You see a lot of this with 1873 Colt Single Action Army revolvers in Western Movies set in the 1870s. But I assume that for the first few years at least, no civilians had SAAs and all were Army Spec (long barreled) for quite awhile afterward. I've mentioned here before that my Dad told me quite a few cowboys, general laborers, mine workers and the like, and hobos carried cap and ball revolvers as personal defense weapons in the 1920s ... not expecting to find themselves in the midst of a war or a Bonny and Clyde shootout these were simply the weapons they could afford and were adequate to their limited needs.

Something I find interesting in old movies is when relatively obscure guns show up.

In one old comedy movie, "Killer Dill (1947)," a large frame single action S&W is used by the bad guy. In a couple of movies I've noticed Colt Bisley revolvers and one was used in a more recent movie, "The Grey Fox," a true story, mostly, that managed to get a lot of the little details right, including the handguns.

Although movie budgets had been going up for some time it took until the 1980s before producers and propmen/armorers felt more relaxed about going to the trouble of obtaining sometimes expensive and accurate weaponry not previously accepted by the industry. Obviously, this momentum built and built and now characters are often as defined by the ludicrously exotic weaponry as they are by their costumes. Shooting on foreign locations you are constantly limited by what the locals have for rent. Especially on smaller productions, taking the trouble and the time to import weapons can be a real problem. You use or buy what the locals have or the local laws will allow.

I know a couple of actors who have purchased, had restored, or reliability modded, a few weapons that they use regularly in films because they are cool, unexpected, or always work.

It used to be that film makers shied away from anything semi automatic. Making these work with blanks (no recoil) is an art. Colt 1911s famously never worked well but of some reason the Spanish produced Llama clones functioned slightly better so that's what was often used. I believe that in the 1980s Baretta went to the trouble of factory engineering blank firing Model 92s and it was a marketing master-stroke eventually copied by many other manufacturers. For awhile you saw Barettas everywhere. Now, the problems with semis have become quite minimal but how many times in the past did you see an actor wielding an obviously jammed semi auto? Movie guns do not "run out" of ammunition during a shot, the actor knows exactly how many rounds he or she is going to fire as does the prop crew. An average day on an inexpensive movie costs $10,000 an hour to shoot. So a single firearm malfunction can easily cost you $5k. In the midst of an expensive day of stunt sequences a malfunction could run $100,000 of lost time. That means you have to cut a day's worth of something less expensive before the end of the picture. In the end you always try to use what will work.

For awhile in the 1990s it was popular for movie armorers to use "real historical weapons" in period films rather than reproductions (many of them the bits and pieces of the old Stembridge armory). Actors, who have a weakness for anything "real" (because so much in their world isn't), loved it but producers didn't. I remember a day we had several failure to fires in a row and then a dangerous chain fire (seemingly from bad cylinder timing) on a wonderful old percussion revolver. I took the armorer, who as spent the preproduction period bragging about his "historical" weapons, aside and told him to rent new fully functioning reproduction weapons for every gun that had yet to be established or we'd be looking for another armorer. He huffed and puffed a bit but couldn't argue that 1) the guns hadn't worked well and 2) I had warned him that what he brought to the show, old or new, had to WORK every time.

 

[BlueTrain]

During the heyday of the B-Western, all those Colt Single-Actions you would have seen were real Colts. However, by as early as the 1950s, reproductions were already being used, mainly Great Westerns at first. I don't know when the Italian-made reproductions began appearing on the market but I suspect it was in the early 1960s when the Civil War reenacting took off. There are even reproduction tanks created for films, which are actual real tanks modified to look like something else.

On a website maintained by one of my wife's cousins, who is currently in Afghanistan, there is a photo of a WWII French R-35 (Pretty sure that's the model) light tank somewhere in Afghanistan, probably not in working order. Those things keep turning up in the strangest places.

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

In the western series "Trackdown," (1957-59), Hobie Gilman ( Robert Culp) carried a S&W break-open revolver. I'm not sure which model it was, but it was a change from the Colt '73. In "The High Chaparral," (1967-71) Manolito ( Henry Darrow) used a Remington 1875. While functionally identical to the Colt it had a slightly different profile that was noticeable to gun people. Sometimes for shows set in the Civil War or shortly thereafter, like "Custer of the West " (1967), they dummied up old Remington '75s or Colt '73s to resemble cap-and-ball Remingtons. It let them use the standard blanks and bypass the laborious front-stuffing reloads. For a real curiosity, in the series "Johnny Ringo," ( 1959-1960) the titular hero, played by Don Durant, carries a LeMat "grapeshot pistol," with a shotgun barrel below the main one. I believe the gun carried was a studio prop since it didn't seem to operate like a genuine c&b LeMat (though I believe some LeMat pinfires were made.)

 

[Stearmen]

On a website maintained by one of my wife's cousins, who is currently in Afghanistan, there is a photo of a WWII French R-35 (Pretty sure that's the model) light tank somewhere in Afghanistan, probably not in working order. Those things keep turning up in the strangest places.

You probably are thinking of the WWI French Renault FT-17 tanks pulled out of there in 2002.

 

[Stearmen]

I believe the gun carried was a studio prop since it didn't seem to operate like a genuine c&b LeMat (though I believe some LeMat pinfires were made.)

Pietta of Italy makes a 9 shot .44 and 20 gauge center shot. The originals were .42 and .63 shotgun barrel. There are several non firing replicas around. every time a almost pull the trigger, (pun intended) and buy one, I think what a pain they must be to clean!

 

[BlueTrain]

No, it was an R-35 but it was in Iraq, not Afghanistan. Here's a link to the photo:http://www.philipsmucker.com/Photos/Pages_Iraq/index.htm

 

[Benzadmiral]

German Walther P-38 used in PLANET of THE APES

View attachment 69644 View attachment 69645

There is something odd about the P-38. The receiver, and the frame portion just under it, are too long; they jut back beyond the grip in a way the standard P-38 didn't.

 

[belfastboy]

Okay here is a bit of morning silliness.......Watched Liz Taylor in "The Sandpipers" the other night.........man, her very structured, very pointy bra could very well have been used as a weapon. My first thought was, "Its all fun and games til somebody loses an eye".

 

[green papaya]

There is something odd about the P-38. The receiver, and the frame portion just under it, are too long; they jut back beyond the grip in a way the standard P-38 didn't.

I see what your talking about, the receiver on a original doesnt look as long? I think the Simian model in the other photo is some type of non firing prop gun, replica.

 

[V.C. Brunswick]

The Colt .45 Automatic seen in Titanic. First of all, the first commercial version of the M1911 didn't come out until after the Titanic was lost and second, it would have been very expensive in 1912 and a little beyond the means of a mere manservant, especially a nickel-plated example.

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, they're still beyond the means of mere manservants, if you ask me. However, they were apparently available fairly soon as commercially available pistols, referred to as the Colt Government Model. They were never listed in catalogs as M-1911, which is what the army called them. But even in the army, and they were still in use when I was in the army, they were virtually always referred to as a .45 automatic or more commonly, .45 auto. And nobody ever called an M-14 a "battle rifle."

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

I wondered about David Warner's .45 in "Titanic"as well, and I think it's not out of the question. A multimillionaire like Billy Zane's character might well have acquired the latest thing in personal armament for his bodyguard. Colt's always made up sample guns to send around to prospective militaries and commercial dealers and Zane's character could well have had connections in that area. For all we know, he could have been a major stockholder in Colt's. It's a stretch, but not beyond possibility.

 

[BlueTrain]

It would have been more likely that a Model 1900 or 1902 .38 ACP automatic would have been used. It was promoted by Colt as a sportsman's pistol and also as a military weapon. Although it did not sell in large numbers, it was nevertheless manufactured up until it was replaced by the .38 Super Automatic in 1928. If you are lucky and look carefully, the sometimes show up in old movies. Although relatively rare, I have seen a couple for sale. The .45 auto, on the other hand, was widely used between the wars by police in a few places, the Norwegian Army and in the U.K.

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

Also, there was the Colt model 1905 .45 ACP. It fired the same cartridge as the later 1911 but had some more complicated features. The great 1911 was essentially the 1905 with the bugs worked out.

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, the Colt 1905 was quite different from the Government Model. It was very similiar to the .38 ACP models and had the same overall shape. It was made only for a short time but one website, which I cannot refer to (a Colt collector's information site, not a forum), has photos of all of them. There was a very interesting photo of a man on horseback on safari in Africa. He had his 1905 Colt in a holster attached to the near side of the saddle. The pistol and holster are still around and were pictured as they are today. According to the story given there, he actually used it when attacked by some natives (this would have been before WWI). Supposedly the incident really troubled him and he gave the gun away. The family he gave it to still owned it.

Although both the .38 ACP automatics and the pre-1911 .45 automatics look a little odd and awkward to us today, anyone who wanted such a combination of features (that is, an automatic pistol in .38 or .45) bought one if they could. Nobody ever knows what is going to be available in five years, even though it may be a lot better. Of course, these days we really know that the older it is, the better it is.

There was a 1907 model, too. Also, according to the same website, some commercial .45 ACP Government Models were sold to the government, which removed all such markings and serial numbers and remarked them with appropriate US Army marking and serial numbers, although some internal markings were left as they were.

 

[Inkstainedwretch]

The 1911 is a fascinating study. Actually, what disqualifies Warner's gun for authenticity is not that it's a 1911, but that it's a 1911A1, a development of the mid-1920s. The enlarged ejection port, longer grip safety spur and shortened trigger are clearly visible in the picture above. With a bit more effort the filmmakers could have acquired an original or a modern copy of a 1911. The nickle plating and fancy engraving seen above would have added to the sense that this was a rich man's pistol, bought to arm his bodyguard. But even if they were aware of the difference, they probably would have thought it too much effort for a weapon audiences would have seen only in a flash for a few seconds of screen time. Close enough was good enough.